The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

I keep seeing MTers doing this 2.5x BB PFR. Can someone explain the mathematical reasoning of this to me? How is this better than 3-4x BB?

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

Keeping the pot under control for c/bs with hands like AK,AQ, then disguising with QQ-AA

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

WTF. Are you serious?

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

It's not so much mathematical as psychological. As the blinds get high, a 2.5 BB raise will most likely give you the same amount of fold equity while it reduces your loss when someone over pushes. It also works well for pot control reasons if you do get called.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

as the blinds go up, these raises are still such a high percentage of your stack anyway, you want someone calling a raise to 250 with 1500 chips if they have a hand like JT suited or 55 against your overpair.

that, and keeping your c-betting relatively cheap.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

2.5x BB bet does the same thing as a 3x BB bet as far as fold equity in steals. no need to risk more chips than you need to for the same effect.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

[ QUOTE ]
2.5x BB bet does the same thing as a 3x BB bet as far as fold equity in steals. no need to risk more chips than you need to for the same effect.

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this is not true.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

It's actually very mathematical.

At times, 3x BB is simply spew.

Ryan

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

spew?

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

I make it 2.75x, which is another example of me playing perfect poker.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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I make it 2.75x, which is another example of me playing perfect poker.

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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It's actually very mathematical.

At times, 3x BB is simply spew.

Ryan

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Can you elaborate?

To me you are saying that the greater the strength of your hand, the better odds you can give. So, with stronger hands if you raise 2.5BBs it will be a mistake for your opponents to call. However, if you have a weaker hand, it may require 3BBs to make it a mistake for them to call.

Obv you are not doing this, so I assume you actually mean something different?

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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2.5x BB bet does the same thing as a 3x BB bet as far as fold equity in steals. no need to risk more chips than you need to for the same effect.

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this is not true.

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we are talking about later on in sng's when the blinds actually mean something right?

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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2.5x BB bet does the same thing as a 3x BB bet as far as fold equity in steals. no need to risk more chips than you need to for the same effect.

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this is not true.

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we are talking about later on in sng's when the blinds actually mean something right?

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In most cases, you don't 2.5x bet late in sng's...

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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2.5x BB bet does the same thing as a 3x BB bet as far as fold equity in steals. no need to risk more chips than you need to for the same effect.

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this is not true.

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we are talking about later on in sng's when the blinds actually mean something right?

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In most cases, you don't 2.5x bet late in sng's...

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like when. 100/200 standard raise is 500 if your not pushing. 500/200=2.5

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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2.5x BB bet does the same thing as a 3x BB bet as far as fold equity in steals. no need to risk more chips than you need to for the same effect.

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this is not true.

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we are talking about later on in sng's when the blinds actually mean something right?

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In most cases, you don't 2.5x bet late in sng's...

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like when.

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um...when you're pushing...

100/200 aint really late either...

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

cases in which you push are totally irrelavent to the OPs question

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

You raise 2.5 X the BB because whenever you raise more or less than 2.5, a gay baby is born. That is why.

You are welcome.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

The main reason is so that you do not pot commit your self. Once blinds become a large % of stack sizes, you will often be getting greater than 2-1 odds to call a push reraise, particularly in the ante phases. With a smaller raise, your pot odds will be worse to call a push, and getting away from the hand becomes an option.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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It's actually very mathematical.

At times, 3x BB is simply spew.

Ryan

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Can you elaborate?

To me you are saying that the greater the strength of your hand, the better odds you can give. So, with stronger hands if you raise 2.5BBs it will be a mistake for your opponents to call. However, if you have a weaker hand, it may require 3BBs to make it a mistake for them to call.

Obv you are not doing this, so I assume you actually mean something different?

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2.5xBB is pretty standard as it is a pot sized raise and it helps control the pot on the CB. Personally I think people use 3x in BM tournies because they are either too lazy or too dumb to calculate the half bet in. Most online sites have a standard button for it.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

I raise whatever seems to be taking down the blinds. 2.5x frequently will take down the blinds.

I also raise 2.5, or even 2.0, at various points for pot control based on my opponents stack. Say he has 1000 in the BB and it's 50/100 blinds (start with 1500, Stars). Due to his chip/blind ratio, 2.5x is enough to generate fold equity. He might call a few hands he'd otherwise fold, but that's ok, because the real reason for my 2.5x bet is post flop equity.

If I raise preflop to 250 that leaves him with 750 in a 550 chip pot if he calls (assume SB folds). If I then bet 250 as a continuation bet, he's looking having about the same chips as are in the pot and that's important to his decision process.

He has enough chips to fold in a pot this size. That's the key. He can live to fight another day. It's a pot worth having...but perhaps not worth going broke over.

If I raised 3xBB preflop, post flop odds end up more tempting for him. Now he has 700 chips in a 650 pot. If I c-bet 300, now he's looking at a nearly 1000 chip pot and he may feel any-two cards are worth going broke with.

A 2.5BB preflop raise puts me in a situation to have good fold equity on a c-bet where a 3xBB preflop raise doesn't.

Also, in this case, if I'm betting more than 2.5BB, I'm betting probably 4-5BB, not 3. His chip count (10BB) is at an inflection point where he can play a small pot or an all-in. Which I bet depends on my hand. Hands that are hard to play post flop (22-77, A4s, etc) I'll bet 4-5BB preflop. I want to win or be so pot committed that it's and easy call if he shoves back.

Hands that are really strong (AQ+, 99+), I'll raise the 2.5BB because they're strong enough c-bet on many boards or call if he shoves.

Hands like 89s, JTs, etc are the tough ones to decide how to play for me.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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You raise 2.5 X the BB because whenever you raise more or less than 2.5, a gay baby is born. That is why.

You are welcome.

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Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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You raise 2.5 X the BB because whenever you raise more or less than 2.5, a gay baby is born.

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You forgot to add, "not that there's anything wrong with that."

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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Say he has 1000 in the BB and it's 50/100 blinds (start with 1500, Stars).

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Hmmm, I raise 10xBBs here.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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Say he has 1000 in the BB and it's 50/100 blinds (start with 1500, Stars).

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Hmmm, I raise 10xBBs here.

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Certainly can't fault that given the stack sizes.

Maybe I'm making a mistake, but I like to play a lot of small ball and use post flop position to extract value from people on inflection points because they often misplay it worse than they misplay preflop.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

I just read an article on pocketfives.com and the lead article in the SNG section mentioned 2.5x's for the reasons already given.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

All my opponents minraise so that must be best.

Yugoslav

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

I started a thread about this a while back when someone pmed me asking about it..

here's the thread

here's my pm back to him (from the thread)..no one commented on it, so feel fre to give comments now

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alright, here's his question and my response..

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first question, i dont understand raising to only 500 at 100/200. can u explain that? do antes change this?



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I'm assuming that you mean 2.5BBs instead of the typical 3-4xBB raise..(am I correct here)..

there are a few reasons for this..

first, I am assuming that your stack is big enough that you can make this raise, and still have enough chips left to c-bet, and fold to a raise if you don't hit..also that you have a mediocre hand that is worthy of a "steal" here essentially..like AT or KQ or something in the CO...if these conditions are not true..it is usually better to push or fold with a mediocre hand..
--basically all of these situations are different..but I'm going to give you my ideas on what should be considered..

it would actually be a good idea to make a thread entitled "what are the reasons to raise to t500 instead of t600 at the t100/t200 level?"..you should get others opinions on this as well..I'm not sure if they re the same as mine..as I don't remember ever discussing this in detail with anyone else..nevertheless you will see a lot of posts telling people to raise a little less than 3xBB...and these are he main resons..I believe.

1)first remember that in most of these situations, the main goal is to pick up the blinds and antes..it is nearly always better to pick up the blinds than get allin with someone..even if you are a slight favorite (fold equity is usually the most important factor with anything other than premium hands)..I'll get back to this in a minute..

2)(preflop decisions)..raising less gives you more room to fold preflop to a reraiser (you will see many posts where the poster raises to t600 with a "decent" hand like AT or KQ say (or to t300 or more in the t50/t100 level) then gets reraised allin for an amount that puts him in a hard spot..since he is most likely beat, but he is being offered close to correct odds to call...so people will respond to the post that he should have raised to t500 instead..since he could then safely fold to the reraise where he is most likely behind..

3)(postflop decisions)..if you don't have enough chips to raise preflop, then c-bet post flop (most fo the time I should say..this isn't always necessary, but it is just meant to imply that it is all about how many chip you have in relation to the blinds)..and fold to a raise, you really shouldn't be raising to begin with with a mediocre hand...you should either be folding or pushing all in depending on whether or not pushing is profitable...

once again, raising less preflop saves you chips preflop (as well as postflop since you c-bet will not need to be as big)

these ideas are both basically extensions of the "10BB" rule..but here was can manipulate our preflop raise amount to accomodate our situation...it's all about making the play that is most profitable...and some times stealing the blinds is most profitable, but we have an amount of chips that makes it hard for us to do that...

a smaller raise allows us to do this with a smaller stack than if we made a larger preflop raise...

alright now back to #1...

#s 2 and 3 would be pretty meaningless if our smaller preflop raise affected our ability to steal the blinds by a large margin...since the majority of the value of our raise preflop is from talkint the blinds without a confrontation..

however, most STT players agree that raising to t500 or t550 instead of to t600 or more..does not affect fold equity by a very large margin...and that the added benefits of this smaller raise as discussed above...DO make up for the slight loss of Fold equity here

all of this is also applicable at the t50/t100 (although to a slightly lesser extent IMO) and basically at any level above that if the effective stack is not too small to make a raise and consider folding (which doesn't happen too often above the t100/t200 level..but it does occasionally)..so raising to t1000 at the t200/t400 level is also the norm if there are stacks of say t4500 of more..

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Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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I just read an article on pocketfives.com and the lead article in the SNG section mentioned 2.5x's for the reasons already given.

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lol pocket5s.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

lol at them all you want. It appears they're right if that's what they're arguing.

Why raise more than you need to?

I'm actually wondering if 2.5x BB in these situations is slightly too much and I may lower my standard raise to around 2.3x BB.

Long term, it matters.

Ryan

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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lol at them all you want. It appears they're right if that's what they're arguing.

Why raise more than you need to?

I'm actually wondering if 2.5x BB in these situations is slightly too much and I may lower my standard raise to around 2.3x BB.

Long term, it matters.

Ryan

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a lot of the situations where one would argue that the appropriate play is 2.5xbb does so because, in my opinion, too much below 2.5x approaches the minraise, and the minraise allows many villsin to play back at us with hands that cant stand a raise and enter into a whole new level of ambiguity and do not hold ground ingame...usually 2.5x is my cuttoff minimum without a read or at a tight table specifically when the situation warrants.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

you are all morons

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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you are all morons

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curtains plz enlighten us!!!

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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you are all morons

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curtains plz enlighten us!!!

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Anytime you don't understand one of curtains' posts, it's because he's thinking several levels above you.

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Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

It probably doesn't matter at all if you play good anyway.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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It probably doesn't matter at all if you play good anyway.

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You're probably wrong

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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It probably doesn't matter at all if you play good anyway.

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You're probably wrong

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Deuce is gonna be good someday if he ever figures out this bet sizing thing.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

bones pwning yet another thread > 2.46799999923134x raise.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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It probably doesn't matter at all if you play good anyway.

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You're probably wrong

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Deuce is gonna be good someday if he ever figures out this bet sizing thing.

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I only made 100k in donkaments last 7 days I think the requirement is around 1mil to be considered good.

Re: The 2.5x BB raise - why??
 

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It probably doesn't matter at all if you play good anyway.

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