How important are the nothing pots?
 

Folded to button who limps, SB completes and you check the BB. The flop is checked around and on the turn SB checks.

Two limps in front of you, you limp OTB, SB completes and BB checks. It's checked around to you.


How important is winning these small, "nothing" pots (I define nothing pots as 2-6BBs and the action indicates that no one has much of anything) to your overall winrate? Does whether you're playing 6-max or FR affect the answer?

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

I only play 6 max but whether I stab at them or not depends very much on my opponents and how I have been running.

If I have been playing tight I tend to stab at more than if I have been active. But if opponents will fold if you so much as look at them I'll take as many as I can get away with.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

I think its huge to your BB/100, so long as you arent stubborn and try to take a 2nd shot at these kinds of pots. If you ONLY bet those hands when you have a made hand, are you expecting to get paid off?

So, important w/out metagame. VERY important w/metagame.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

I like making stabs when HU or 3 way at the flop in unraised pots. I don't like waiting until the turn though and I'm not sure if it's + or -EV.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

IMO they are somewhat important, especially at SSNL where you see limped pots more often. The key is understanding flop texture and only taking stabs at certain "orphan pots."

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

somewhat important is your answer...well said aj

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

I'm the kind of player who takes down a lot of these pots... but I frequently have these doubts too, mostly because even though like 75-80% of my stabs are successful, the few times I do get caught it seems like I lose enough money to make my sucessful stabs more or less inconsquential.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

Not making stabs at these pots was one of those "AHA!" moments for me. To each their own I guess.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

Sunpar: do the math.

3bb pot. You bet 2bb's and take the pot down 75% of the time, losing the 2bb's 25% of the time. + or - EV?

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

Ehh it's not that simple AJ. From my observations, if trying to take down small pots is +EV for you (and for the way certain people play, it certainly can be), then you need to work on your aggression in big pots. Does anyone see the relation between the two?

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

It IS that simple - I see a small "orphan" pot that no-one wants I bet at it, usually they all fold and I make a couple of BB.

if they don't fold to my bet I shutdown.

When I make the same size "stab" at a pot with a good hand sometimes I get called - then I get aggressive on later streets and make even more.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

It really isn't. Think of your ability to take down pots as something finite (which it is, which is the reason why raising every single hand will eventually get you more callers) and you can even use a cute metaphor. I think a useful one is bullets in a gun. Let's say I can fire 6 bullets per session (bets into pots that make my opponent fold no matter what) - would I rather use these in the nothing pots or the gigantic ones? The answer is clear; you'd use them in the big pots! If you don't think there's a relationship between how often your cbets get called and how often you take stabs at pots where people can guess that you have nothing, then you are adopting a view of the trees that neglects to see the forest.

But once again, like I said - for certain people betting into nothing pots can certainly be +EV. But for the best players, this usually isn't the case.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

depends on the table

on standard table it's important to pick up on texture and take down orphan pots

on some tables you want to take stabs at many small pots to generate action when you have a hand and want to build a bigger pot

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

[censored]

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It really isn't. Think of your ability to take down pots as something finite (which it is, which is the reason why raising every single hand will eventually get you more callers) and you can even use a cute metaphor. I think a useful one is bullets in a gun. Let's say I can fire 6 bullets per session (bets into pots that make my opponent fold no matter what) - would I rather use these in the nothing pots or the gigantic ones? The answer is clear; you'd use them in the big pots! If you don't think there's a relationship between how often your cbets get called and how often you take stabs at pots where people can guess that you have nothing, then you are adopting a view of the trees that neglects to see the forest.

But once again, like I said - for certain people betting into nothing pots can certainly be +EV. But for the best players, this usually isn't the case.

[/ QUOTE ]


I highly doubt arguments like this, no EV calculations = bad.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

I like to stab alot at these pots. For one thing, it loosens your image. It also balances the times where you actually have a hand.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

You are right, the best players are thinking about their image when they decide to stab at a pot. If they've taken a few stabs in the last few hands then they let the next one go because, it is small, or they have enough of a 'loose' image to get called, or they are currently in a phase of establishing a tight image etc.

But IMO, your argument seems to be largely about image and like it or not, in SSNL image is not a huge consideration. The passive calling stations call anyway, the weak tight players fold anyway, the lags raise anyway. No one gives a [censored] whether I stabbed at the last 4 pots or haven't taken a shot all night they just aren't paying that much attention.


I could be pendantic and argue that each and every pot I play for is a unique situation. To consider my chance of successfully 'buying' a pot to be a function solely of how many pots i have bought already in this session is clearly incorrect. There are many variales such as the most recent hands, the calling tendancies of villain, the cards of villain, my read of villains hand, my hand, the cards on the board, villains skill/style etc.

Essentially, my decision to bet with a less than stellar hand in the hope of taking it down may be influenced by how often i have tried to steal that session, but it is only one of many factors.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

Agreed Skuzzy - I'm not saying that your image is the only thing that dictates whether to stab at a pot; it's just something the vast majority of SSNLers totally neglect to think about when they decide to. Although SSNLers don't pay as much attention to your table image as MSNLers, SSNLers will adapt to extreme aggression. Trust me, I know!

Also, I'm surprised to learn that a lot of people on SSNL (which on the whole I think is wayyy too nitty) seem to be advocating more aggression in small pots and less in big pots when in reality it should be the converse.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed Skuzzy - I'm not saying that your image is the only thing that dictates whether to stab at a pot; it's just something the vast majority of SSNLers totally neglect to think about when they decide to. Although SSNLers don't pay as much attention to your table image as MSNLers, SSNLers will adapt to extreme aggression. Trust me, I know!

Also, I'm surprised to learn that a lot of people on SSNL (which on the whole I think is wayyy too nitty) seem to be advocating more aggression in small pots and less in big pots when in reality it should be the converse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with tupacia. Imagine the my primary concern when stabbing at small pots.

I also agree that most SSNLer's are far too tight/nitty.

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

it can be very importnat. poker isnt only about knowing how to win the big pots. picking up the small ones is what helps a player maintain a bank roll and stay afloat. any noob can play AA or a flopped straight but knowing that they can pick up the dead blinds, why they should pick them up, and actually doing it is one thing that separates a decent player from a great player

Re: How important are the nothing pots?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It really isn't. Think of your ability to take down pots as something finite (which it is, which is the reason why raising every single hand will eventually get you more callers) and you can even use a cute metaphor. I think a useful one is bullets in a gun. Let's say I can fire 6 bullets per session (bets into pots that make my opponent fold no matter what) - would I rather use these in the nothing pots or the gigantic ones? The answer is clear; you'd use them in the big pots!

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree a lot.

here is an example I have 93o in the BB CO limps SB completes and 3 of us see the flop which comes 8 high ragged . SB checks, I check and the CO checks.

Turn is a brick - SB checks it to me and I bet the pot (a whopping 3BB) and CO and SB fold the hand - these are the small pot situations I am talking about. It's plain noone has hit anything and everyone is just wating for someone to bet so they can fold and see the next hand...

I think we have (to use your metaphor) 2 guns - a big gun that we fire at BIG pots - and a small gun that we fire at nothing pots - we may well have a fixed amount of bullets in each gun - but noone really takes much notice of what happen n the small pots, unless you really overdo it.

Lets say in the course of 1 session I take down 10 of these orphan tiny pots that noone realy cares too much about. Thats 10 tiny bluffs spaced out over a couple of hours for a total extra profit of 30BB or around 1/3 of a buyin. You are really telling me that because I have fired at small pots now and then that villains are much more likely to call my semi-bluff bullets when I fire at big pots?????

I don't think so. NOT at SSNL tables. The majority of the villains we play here are awful and lack the talent and the inclination to notice things like that, if you aren't overdoing it and only firing now and then at selected orphan pots.

[ QUOTE ]

If you don't think there's a relationship between how often your cbets get called and how often you take stabs at pots where people can guess that you have nothing, then you are adopting a view of the trees that neglects to see the forest.

[/ QUOTE ]

of COURSE there is - this is really basic stuff I think. but I don't believe the relationship between the two is as strong as you are suggesting.

[ QUOTE ]
But once again, like I said - for certain people betting into nothing pots can certainly be +EV. But for the best players, this usually isn't the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's super deluxe extra EV+ with cheese if I pickup a hand within a couple of hands of firing a bluff - for some reason I tend to get called more often if I fire at 2 pots in quick succession and I never fire twice without the goods the second time around. And the more often you fire bluffs the more likely you are to hit a real hand shortly afterwards wher you are rooting for villains to call your bets and not fold out.