What Europen Court for Justice ruled about online gambling
 

Gambelli case.

The European Court of Justice(the "ECJ") delivered judgement in the Gambelli case on 6 November 2003. The case related to the freedom to provide online betting across Member States. Parties interested in the online gaming industry have been polarised into those who believe that there should be freedom to provide online gambling services across the EU (largely made up of commercial operators) and those who argue that online gambling should not be offered from an operator in one state to a punter in another (largely made up of anti-gambling lobbies and the state-sponsored monopolies, like lotteries). ( http://lawzone.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin...=207&f=259 )

European court said that:
"In so far as the authorities of a Member State incite and encourage consumers to participate in lotteries, games of chance and betting to the financial benefit of the public purse, the authorities of that State cannot invoke public order concerns relating to the need to reduce opportunities for betting in order to justify measures such as those at issue in the main proceedings."

<u>Quoted text is the argument of European Court against hypocrisy states, becaused they allowed state owned lotteris, but banned other forms of gambling.</u>


The whole judgement is here: http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/ge...mp;seance=ARRET


This might has some relevance because in USA beting on horse races online is allowed, but almost all other forms of gambling are not.
As far as I know WTO already ruled about USA-s restrictions on online gambling, but maybe this can be an argument for the United States Supreme Court. I am not familiar with the American law (I studdy law in Europe), but probably you also have rules about "freedom to provide services" or similar.

I thought it would be interesting to post this, since any idea should be welcomed.

I will really miss American friends, if they won't be able to play anymore. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] (In fact, I already miss you now. It was so sad seeing 90 000 players online on Party Poker yesterday, because I know how this number will drop.)

More about Gambelli case: http://www.google.si/search?hl=sl&amp;sa...anje&amp;meta=

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

US to Euroland: we don't care bout your laws nor the WTO.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

Hey American, I underlined this:

<u>"Quoted text is the argument of European Court against hypocrisy states, becaused they allowed state owned lotteris, but banned other forms of gambling."</u>

So maybe this argument about hypocrisy can be used on US court as well. (I know that decision of our courts aren't precedents for US courts, lol? I posted this because of hypocrisy argument, which obviously worked on our court.)

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

Unfortunately, there is no anti-hypocrisy clause in our constitution. If there were, most of our legislators and judges would be out of work or behind bars.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

There isn't an anti-hypocrisy clause in our laws either. But there are many others from which you can derive this.
Perhaps this is a topic in which lawyers should respond.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

No, it's a cultural thing. In European courts we use logic. In American courts they use beliefs, values and shamanism.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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No, it's a cultural thing. In European courts we use logic. In American courts they use beliefs, values and shamanism.

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LOL

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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No, it's a cultural thing. In European courts we use logic. In American courts they do what the government tells them to.

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FYP

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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US to Euroland: we don't care bout your laws nor the WTO.

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That's just the problem isn't it. You dont care. You dont care about WTO, EU or to protest strong enough against US laws resticting gambling, lol.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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US to Euroland: we don't care bout your laws nor the WTO.

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OT:

Have fun then chap [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

US is going downhill because of your neglegance to the rest of the world. The world is uniting through international organisations, unions etc, but the US will be standing outside of it all since you're too proud to listen to anyone else. I don't know if it's because you're scared of losing your status as a super power or whatever it is, but you better get used to it because in several years China will be a nation which the US will not be able to control.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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US to Euroland: we don't care bout your laws nor the WTO.

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No, its one of the few things the US do care about. They may not want to but they do.

IF the EU decides to get heavy over this, using the WTO and trade sanctions then the pressure on the US to comply will be massive. I doubt there's any where near strong enough support for this ban to withstand the presure.

but it takes time and the EU may not want to get heavy over a gambling issue.

chez

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

Economically though if there were to be tit for tat trade wars would eurpoe not lose out more and be the first to buckle?

I dont see gambling as being an issue that the EU will goto war with the US on, the WTO and whoever may jump up and down a bit but ultimately how much power do they have?

Ultimately the bill has to be defeated from within the US imho, the people looking for the WTO, EU or non US gambling firms to bail them out should be looking at ways that they can try and turn this round internally, I assume through lobbying for some sort of new licencing laws for the US similar to the UK ones.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

Good Post. It cannot hurt. Good Luck at Party!!!

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

Believe me, the US does not want a trade war with the EU - you're talking about 350 to 450 million wealthy consumers, and that carries a lot of weight. But neither does the EU, and I don't think gambling is something they'll stick their necks out over.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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US to Euroland: we don't care bout your laws nor the WTO.

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That is simply a myopic statement. The WTO protects several huge American industries, and these industries will not allow bible thumpers against gambling to blow that...

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

This argument won't work in U.S. courts because U.S. courts are less willing to just make stuff up as they go. That's probably one reason why the EU keeps falling further and further behind economically and in the protection of personal freedoms.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

EU is faling behind USA in protecting personal freedoms? This is meant sarcastic, right?

Courts should ask goverment why there are exceptions in this bill if the reason for the bill was problem gambling. The rule of law beside other things means also that congress cannot pass a bill without having legitimate reasons for it.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
US to Euroland: we don't care bout your laws nor the WTO.

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That's just the problem isn't it. You dont care. You dont care about WTO, EU or to protest strong enough against US laws resticting gambling, lol.

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I think the OP was being sarcastic. He was pretending to be the voice of the government, not himself. Most conscientious American's do care about other governmental models. Its just hard to figure out how to actually protest. I wrote and called my congressman. But unfortunately, as far as I can tell, average citizens can't just walk into a house meeting. And even worse, apparently congress members don't even get to vote on insidious laws tacked onto important ones. We care very deeply, so how about not making fun of Americans. People have spent lots of time in this forum and in other venues trying to organize dissent. Remember that this country is rather large and full of a ridiculous ammount of opposing views. It makes us strong and vulnerable at the same time.

(I am not saying that other countries such as the UK don't have these issues. I'm just speaking from personal perspective.)

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

Some people think geo-politics is like watching an NFL game. You root for your team because somehow their success represents your inner value. It's fun in the world of sports. In the Geo-political world, it's dangerous.

Let go! You're an American. You'll always be an American and You'll always love America. As you should. America will always be great not because of her economic power, military might, or constitituional freedoms but because she's a part of you and no other reason.

Conservatives don't understand that. They need something higher and bigger than them to validate themselves. Liberals need nothing but their own self worth and autonomy. That's why we don't get defensive when someone critisizes American policy or even America herself.and we don't feel pride when America achieves any sort of victory. We don't need any extra pride. We have enough as it. Nor do we need to verbally defend our country: It is what it is, and we'll always love it no matter what.

I'm on a roll ranting tonight.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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That's why we don't get defensive when someone critisizes American policy or even America herself.and we don't feel pride when America achieves any sort of victory.

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If you are right (and sadly I believe that in many ways you are), then this society has a grave problem.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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That's why we don't get defensive when someone critisizes American policy or even America herself.and we don't feel pride when America achieves any sort of victory.


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If you are right (and sadly I believe that in many ways you are), then this society has a grave problem.

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I don't expect Conservatives or Liberals to ever come to terms with their differences. Their world views and psychological makeups are just too different. For me as a pretty radical Liberal, pride is okay if it's seen as something to laugh and joke about. But dangerous, if it gets one indignant. All in all, it's a pretty useless and mostly counter-productive emotion, and no Conservative would ever agree with that.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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Economically though if there were to be tit for tat trade wars would eurpoe not lose out more and be the first to buckle?

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I'm not sure about who would buckle first but both sides would take it very seriously.

Remember the steel import duties that George W had to repeal linky

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I dont see gambling as being an issue that the EU will goto war with the US on

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I suspect that's right but who can fathom the EU? There's a lot of money that might be talking here.

chez

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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This argument won't work in U.S. courts because U.S. courts are less willing to just make stuff up as they go. That's probably one reason why the EU keeps falling further and further behind economically and in the protection of personal freedoms.

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Either you're joking or you really are living up to the very worst stereotype of your country. The guy making the original post was trying to help out by pointing out how we do things in Europe.

The 'making stuff up as we go along' I assume your referring to is the law of precedent, where the ruling of a court affect how a similar case is dealt with in future. This allows for a flexible legal system that can change with the times and reflect the opinions of society.

Secondly, do you even know what the economic situation in Europe is? We are far from falling behind, especially in the UK where unemployment is much lower than the US and our currency is stronger.

As for personal freedom?!?!? How can you even say that when the very thing this whole section of the forum is about is your government taking away your personal freedom to gamble as you wish?! This would never happen in Europe, especially in the underhand manner in which Frist achieved it, by simply tacking it onto an important bill of a competely different nature.

Wake up Greg, Americans have a lot less personal freedom than Europeans, Australasians and many Asian countries. When you start to realise this, maybe you can do something about it.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

I think USA has way more freedom with owning guns than any other country in the world. For any other freedom I wouldn't rank USA too high.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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I think USA has way more freedom with owning guns than any other country in the world. For any other freedom I wouldn't rank USA too high.

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I can't quite tell from what you've written but hopefully you agree with me that the availability of guns is a bad thing?

And what a crazy country where you can own the gun that can be used to slaughter innocent little Amish kids (to use a recent example) but you can't play a $5 poker tournament in your own home!

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

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I can't quite tell from what you've written but hopefully you agree with me that the availability of guns is a bad thing?

And what a crazy country where you can own the gun that can be used to slaughter innocent little Amish kids (to use a recent example) but you can't play a $5 poker tournament in your own home!

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Only things you approve should be allowed? Now you are very nearly arguing case of Mr. Frist. You deny freedom to own gun since you think it causes trouble. Mr. Frist denies freedom of online poker since he thinks it causes trouble. There is no difference.

And for reasons why guns should be allowed check national rifle association web page. I bet they can give dozens of good reasons which are very hard to argue against.

Re: What Europena Court for Human Rights ruled about online gamling
 

If Europeans fear an American monopoly on ignorance and pride it is only because they hold the patents.

I give you two world wars, countless genocides, communism, and fascism, as minor evidence, the worlds problems have roots well before the United States ever existed, and debates over national sovereignty, the common law and civil law are ranging far afield.
As poker players we are all in this together, no one person group or nation has an exclusive claim to ignorance, we are all equally guilty, it is the basic human condition, relieve yourselves of your bias, see one another as human beings, then perhaps we can understand one another.
To keep yelling American, European, right wing left wing blah blah blah is as usefull as chanting Fit or Fold everytime you see a flop.