Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

I am wondering whether I should consider going back into the software field due to the current turmoil. I am wondering what the effect on poker in the US is going to be.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

this decision will be made for you soon enough.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

unless you live near a major casino with regular, mid limit+ games, you should start looking for a job or a way out of the country

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

So happy I quit my psuedo baller wall street job. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

i don't know

i've convinced myself not to panic yet and see what develops

i have enough money saved to keep my options pretty open

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know

i've convinced myself not to panic yet and see what develops

i have enough money saved to keep my options pretty open

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
unless you live near a major casino with regular, mid limit+ games, you should start looking for a job or a way out of the country

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I live in Detroit. We have 2 poker rooms in Casinos and one directly across the border in Windsor Canada. The problem is that limit sucks. The rake is sky high and you cant multi-table. They do spread some 5-10NL, but I have never played it live. Guess im gonna go check it out this weekend. But still not the same as playing in your underwear watching tV and talking on the phone. Damn, im getting teary eyed for real. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
unless you live near a major casino with regular, mid limit+ games, you should start looking for a job or a way out of the country

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there's a viable grinder mid-limit tourney circuit outside of Vegas and possibly the SoCal area, is there?

Just never thought a possible future involving poker would require staying in Canada. The limit games are soft enough live, but it's... a grind.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know

i've convinced myself not to panic yet and see what develops

i have enough money saved to keep my options pretty open

[/ QUOTE ]
I did take all of my money out of my accounts. That said, I have enough money saved up that I should be able to weather the storm, figure out what's next, and see if I really need to make a move to playing live or in another country.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

Ironically, I had just made the decision to fckn play professionally. Or semi-pro since my main "job" is college.

God dammit.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

This new legislation didn't make me reconsider going pro, but now it did make me not want to go to lawschool anymore. I was planning on applying this year and playing poker throughout law school so that I wouldn't need to take out any loans, but now going to lawschool has a huge opportunity cost that wasn't there 24 hours ago. So I pretty much wasted a ton of time preparing for the LSAT when I shoudl have been playing marathon sessions to make money while I still could.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

Pat, I think that is a terrible way to look at things as far as I can tell. You need law school now more then ever.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

Paul,
The abolition of US online poker isn't the only factor leading me to make my decision, it is just a contributing factor. After thinking about it I'm not really sure that I want to 1. pay 100k+ to go to school for 3 years (plus lost wages) 2. be putting in 80 hour weeks in the prime of my life. Although if I get a 175+ on the LSAT I'll probably end up applying anyways because my friends and family would kill me if I passed up going to a top 5 law school.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

Well you're a smart guy so I am sure you know what you are doing. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

not to be a jackass, but was anyone else surprised to learn that Betgo is a pro?

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
not to be a jackass, but was anyone else surprised to learn that Betgo is a pro?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone with over 2K posts on 2p2 is a pro. Everybody knows this. Betgo has more posts than you, so he MUST be better than you... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not to be a jackass, but was anyone else surprised to learn that Betgo is a pro?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone with over 2K posts on 2p2 is a pro. Everybody knows this. Betgo has more posts than you, so he MUST be better than you... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

I'm reconsidering my home country.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm reconsidering my home country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Canada rocks, not sure what kind of hoops you would have to jump through to actually live here though.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

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I did take all of my money out of my accounts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you do this because we might have trouble getting it out if we wait? Should we all do this asap or what?

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

Isn't the illegality going to be in the providers receiving money from US citizens?

Can't you just keep your roll in, build this up and take out your substantial winnings for life? Or is the fear that the sites are going [censored] up?

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't the illegality going to be in the providers receiving money from US citizens?

Can't you just keep your roll in, build this up and take out your substantial winnings for life? Or is the fear that the sites are going [censored] up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well.. I'm not entirely sure that the law only applies to deposits. Also, when fish can't deposit, lots of us will become losing players.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't the illegality going to be in the providers receiving money from US citizens?

Can't you just keep your roll in, build this up and take out your substantial winnings for life? Or is the fear that the sites are going [censored] up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well.. I'm not entirely sure that the law only applies to deposits. Also, when fish can't deposit, lots of us will become losing players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Naturally, the following is easy for me to say because the legislation doesn't directly affect me and I am not versed in the arguments that have led to its creation.

However, if the issue is that committed poker players will continue to find means to play online, but that fish won't, thus making life tougher and less profitable for the professionals, isn't that a good thing?

Obviously, all winning poker players win through game selection and targetting weaker players. That goes with the territory. But, online, these days we have unknown and unkowable players able to lose whatever their credit ratings will allow while not facing the immediate unplesant consequences (no long walk home, no broken down slouching from the tables). This has to be a bad thing.

My best mate is a drug dealer. He's been doing it for twenty years. He only sells pot. He provides a decent, honest service to respectable pillars of the communinty: honest, decent, white middle class folk like myself. But his most profitable clients are the useless arseholes buying an eighth of skunk a day. This is clearly not doing them any good. It's difficult to justify in moral terms but, hey, where do we draw the line?

Nonetheless, I do feel uncomfortable if our main concern over this legislation is not freedom for the individual, stinking hypocrisy or whatever, but rather the fact that we're not going to make so much money now by fleecing people who are prone to desperate and destructive impulses in the same way as I wouldn't want to serve booze to an alcoholic, drugs to a smackhead or credit to a shopaholic.

If the consequences of this legislation is that committed and professional US players can still get a game (and surely sites will be set up to cater for you in zones beyond US govt. control?) but that trailer trash (if that's your term) can't blow the gyro (welfare) in an evening of tilt, is that such a bad thing?

Incidentally, I feel this applies much less, morally, to MTTs but I always feel pretty dirty taking easy money on low limit cash tables.

I'm not trying to sound holier than thou (I guess I'm succeeding though) but I hope that like Douglas Adam's dolphins you have a better place to go because if all online poker is is a chance for well-educated and advantaged people to profit from the flaws of the less able and favoured then, well, I could make a variety of analogies.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

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I am wondering whether I should consider going back into the software field due to the current turmoil. I am wondering what the effect on poker in the US is going to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Patience everyone. Let me get the obvious out of the way first, this sucks. Now that that's done, there is no reason to go into panic mode. The US market for online poker is just too big. There are a lot of things that can happen at this point, some good and some bad. In a weird way, this could end up being a GOOD thing for poker players. I know it's tough to see that now, but a consolidation among the major sites isn't always a bad thing.

It's easy to push the panic button now, but someone will cater to the US market, and provided they enlighten the fish on how to get there, we'll still be able to play.

I'm trying not to stay overly optimistic or pessimistic, but there *IS* a 6 BILLION dollar market for online poker that didn't just disappear this morning. Someone, somewhere will cater to it. The real issue will be once the smoke blows over if the games remian fishy, or if we're all playing against one another in less +EV situations. It also may quickly become better to be a cash/SnG player than a MTT player if there is a significant dip in US participation, since Europeans tend to play cash more. That's one reason why I try and stay diversified and good at multiple formats/games.

Yeah, this sucks. In the long run we may look back at this as the day online poker died. We also may look at it as the day online poker was finally forced to innovate and improve to attract players, or the day online poker stood up and pushed for broader acceptance/regulation. We also may look back at it as merely a speed bump in the road that ultimately means very little.

Let's not jump ahead of ourselves. I for one, am very pleased with my decision to go professional and am still very much adopting a 'wait and see' attitude towards all of this. I urge you all to do the same.

-Rizen

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

Rizen..

I respect the opinion and the positive approach. But I cant share in the optimism. "Someone will cater to the US market" is not good enough. As you see already today, any legitimate business.. 888, Party gaming soon to follow... Will be forced to cut all US ties, because they are now under the microscope, and if any legit business takes money from a US bank or takes money from neteller that took it from a US bank.. its an indictable offense. NO LEGIT entity will allow itself to be subjected to this, NOT for any reason, whether the US market is 6 billion or 6 trillion. All businesses that dont want to deal with the US govt, will cut all ties to US clients..and I mean all. The big public ones will go first, since they are most visible and have most to lose in terms of shareholder interest. The private firms may wait little bit longer, but they have no option, they want to accept wagers or $ from a US client, they risk losing it all.

This isnt panic.. its reality. For the people who say teh companies will fight it? Are you serious? These are not US based firms running poker sites... They have NO footing and no rights here, they can pay for lobbyists and thats it. Dont you think if the US based casinos could stop this bill they would have? They couldnt... and its ridiculous to think a foreign run poker site will have an ounce of say in this.

this taken from partygaming article today...

"PartyGaming, the operator of the world's biggest poker website, saw about £2.32 billion wiped off the value of its shares after it said it would suspend all real money gaming business with US residents once President George W. Bush ratifies a new law that outlaws the processing of internet payments by banks and credit companies."

I know everyone wants to hold out hope.. but the online poker world is not in our hands.. never has been. This is only the tip of the iceberg.. It will get much worse as any and all firms will sever US ties in hopes of maintaining their image and business. The big companies are already doing it first business day.. and their stock values were cut in 1/2... that means Neteller too..

hate to be negative on this.. but this is reality.. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

ginzorella

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

It's a transition period for a legitimate industry.

Relax. The dominoes will fall where they may.

Don't panic. Just... If some of y'all are damn good at poker, and can adapt to fewer fish. DO IT.

Rizen's got valid points. So does the gimmick.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

Sites will spring up catering for US online poker players. There's entreprenuers from Swaziland to Kamchatka licking their lips at the prospect. There's no way that the US can enforce their laws beyond their borders. (Well, there are lots of ways that they can, do and will but the point remains valid).

The issue is how comfortable US players will feel about transactions involving large sums of money taking place beyond the jurisdiction of the US govt. There are two ways to look at this. Either, they will feel no more comfortable than they did in the days of the Texas road gamblers. Or nothing will change because the status of online poker in the states has always been questionable and love for the game drove players to the internet and their example made the fish feel safe to do the same. Overseas poker sites will be reliable because that it is the most sustainably profitable course of action. And money will pass hands enabling the good names of Pokerstars etc. to do their business in some way shape and form somewhere. If Pokerstars, for example, with its global brand name, loses 70% of its customers because, essentially, its location what's going to happen in a captilist, globalised economy?

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Patience everyone. Let me get the obvious out of the way first, this sucks. Now that that's done, there is no reason to go into panic mode. The US market for online poker is just too big. There are a lot of things that can happen at this point, some good and some bad. In a weird way, this could end up being a GOOD thing for poker players. I know it's tough to see that now, but a consolidation among the major sites isn't always a bad thing.

It's easy to push the panic button now, but someone will cater to the US market, and provided they enlighten the fish on how to get there, we'll still be able to play.

I'm trying not to stay overly optimistic or pessimistic, but there *IS* a 6 BILLION dollar market for online poker that didn't just disappear this morning. Someone, somewhere will cater to it. The real issue will be once the smoke blows over if the games remian fishy, or if we're all playing against one another in less +EV situations. It also may quickly become better to be a cash/SnG player than a MTT player if there is a significant dip in US participation, since Europeans tend to play cash more. That's one reason why I try and stay diversified and good at multiple formats/games.

Yeah, this sucks. In the long run we may look back at this as the day online poker died. We also may look at it as the day online poker was finally forced to innovate and improve to attract players, or the day online poker stood up and pushed for broader acceptance/regulation. We also may look back at it as merely a speed bump in the road that ultimately means very little.

Let's not jump ahead of ourselves. I for one, am very pleased with my decision to go professional and am still very much adopting a 'wait and see' attitude towards all of this. I urge you all to do the same.

-Rizen

[/ QUOTE ]

I echo Rizen's statement. I will wait and see how this plays out. I have kept my working bankroll on Stars but have withdrawn my money from Party and cashed out of Neteller for the time being. My only reason for cashing out of Party is because I've never trusted them much in the past and had only deposited there for the Blackjack promotion that never took place.

I'll requote this one more time:

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I for one, am very pleased with my decision to go professional.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on how this all plays out I guess I may move and start playing live. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

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The issue is how comfortable US players will feel about transactions involving large sums of money taking place beyond the jurisdiction of the US govt.

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Hello, where are all of these transactions take place now??? PS keeps their (and our) dough in Scotland (i think).

I'm sure there is (or will be) a way around the legislation. If it's not found yet, it will be soon, and all message boards and e-mails will be FLOODED with information on how to do it. I'm sure the way (loophole) will be found before 270 days are over.

I, for one, will probably NOT be playing any poker tonight since I need some sleep badly, but I'll be back on tomorrow night, playing 20/180's and maybe Stuper (dead money alert, yo, grab 'em before the government shuts it al down, ZOMG)

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

This is pretty simple ...how most people are sugar coating it boggles my mind...

Swaziland huh....

1. If you run a LEGIT business,public or private, you will close your doors to US customers. If you want to risk litigation, then you proceed and find a way..underground. Same goes for the players.. If you want to risk it you can go ahead and circumvent us laws.

2. The average US poker player will NOT go through the trouble of wiring 1k to a newly set up Bank of Scotland acct.

Put 1 and 2 together.. and tell me what the results of this are....

This may be a "legitimate business" ... Its just not legitimate in the US. And now the govt has found a way to police it, by throwing laws on the institutions holding the cash.


ginzorella

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

I have left almost 1k in party to play a few tourny's this week but otherwise badger has summed up how i feel nicely...

[ QUOTE ]
I will wait and see how this plays out. I have kept my working bankroll on Stars but have withdrawn my money from Party and cashed out of Neteller for the time being. My only reason for cashing out of Party is because i don't trust them

[ QUOTE ]
I for one, am very pleased with my decision to go professional.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on how this all plays out I guess I may move and start playing live. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hello, where are all of these transactions take place now??? PS keeps their (and our) dough in Scotland (i think).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but, in the public mind, Pokerstars is currently a US firm and redress can be sought for malpractice within the American judicial system. This legislation aims to withdraw that security. If effective, Pokerstars will no longer be a US firm.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

Guys, any officer or employee of any company that continues to accept money from US customers after this law goes into effect risks indictment and potential imprisonment for up to five years. I would be shocked if any trustworthy companies continue on blindly accepting US customers after this bill goes into effect.

EDIT: My point is that anyone who says the sky is not falling is horribly naive at this point. Online poker in the US is likely dead, at least as far as making a reliable living off of it.

FURTHER EDIT: I hope I am wrong, obviously. But I just think that you better be honest with yourself if you anticipate making substantial income from online poker from within the US in the future. The days of companies like Neteller, Stars, and Party are gone unless something drastically changes, unless everyone involved with the company never wants to set foot in the US again.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is pretty simple ...how most people are sugar coating it boggles my mind...

Swaziland huh....

1. If you run a LEGIT business,public or private, you will close your doors to US customers. If you want to risk litigation, then you proceed and find a way..underground. Same goes for the players.. If you want to risk it you can go ahead and circumvent us laws.

2. The average US poker player will NOT go through the trouble of wiring 1k to a newly set up Bank of Scotland acct.

Put 1 and 2 together.. and tell me what the results of this are....

This may be a "legitimate business" ... Its just not legitimate in the US. And now the govt has found a way to police it, by throwing laws on the institutions holding the cash.


ginzorella

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You dont really understand whats going on, US cannot regulate other countries. They can say its against the law to accept bets, and yes that might cause some rooms to abandon ship to be on the safe side, but unless gaming execs actually come to the us not much can be done. Look at Sports books, sports betting has been clearly illegal for decades, and there are tons of books still taking us wagers. Why? Cause they know not much can be done about it from the US pov

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, any officer or employee of any company that continues to accept money from US customers after this law goes into effect risks indictment and potential imprisonment for up to five years. I would be shocked if any trustworthy companies continue on blindly accepting US customers after this bill goes into effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I just posted sportsbooks have been doing it for years where there is no grey area or question of interpretation as there is here for pokerrooms, the wire act was quite specific but you see quite a few overseas books taking wagers by phone.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is pretty simple ...how most people are sugar coating it boggles my mind...

Swaziland huh....

1. If you run a LEGIT business,public or private, you will close your doors to US customers. If you want to risk litigation, then you proceed and find a way..underground. Same goes for the players.. If you want to risk it you can go ahead and circumvent us laws.

2. The average US poker player will NOT go through the trouble of wiring 1k to a newly set up Bank of Scotland acct.

Put 1 and 2 together.. and tell me what the results of this are....

This may be a "legitimate business" ... Its just not legitimate in the US. And now the govt has found a way to police it, by throwing laws on the institutions holding the cash.


ginzorella

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont really understand whats going on, US cannot regulate other countries. They can say its against the law to accept bets, and yes that might cause some rooms to abandon ship to be on the safe side, but unless gaming execs actually come to the us not much can be done. Look at Sports books, sports betting has been clearly illegal for decades, and there are tons of books still taking us wagers. Why? Cause they know not much can be done about it from the US pov

[/ QUOTE ]

The US cannot regulate other countries.. correct... However, the US can and has impose laws on any company doing businesson US soil. In the last couple months, mutiple gaming execs were picked up in US... did you miss this? When you do business in another country, you bet your behind you subject yourself to that countrys laws... Now, as you said.. you can avoid that by staying out of the country... So, please tell me now that pokerstars execs and Lee Jones himself will all fly off to live rest of their lives in the caymans...just so they can keep their US customer base? Of course they WONT, money is money.. they will just make less and push internationally.

All legit companies that want to keep their business will not risk dealing with this legislation.. see the 888 and partygaming decisions.. As far as players go... The banks will be breaking US laws by transferring 1 dollar to gambling entities and connected entities (neteller). So only diehards who will go to great lengths to get money into offshore accts will be playing.

please tell me if this all sounds crazy... I think majority of posters and players need to wake up.

ginzorella

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

The sky's falling, the sky's falling. I rather anticipate more will carry weight from Rizen's words than a 4-post "the end of the world" paranoid.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is pretty simple ...how most people are sugar coating it boggles my mind...

Swaziland huh....

1. If you run a LEGIT business,public or private, you will close your doors to US customers. If you want to risk litigation, then you proceed and find a way..underground. Same goes for the players.. If you want to risk it you can go ahead and circumvent us laws.

2. The average US poker player will NOT go through the trouble of wiring 1k to a newly set up Bank of Scotland acct.

Put 1 and 2 together.. and tell me what the results of this are....

This may be a "legitimate business" ... Its just not legitimate in the US. And now the govt has found a way to police it, by throwing laws on the institutions holding the cash.


ginzorella

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont really understand whats going on, US cannot regulate other countries. They can say its against the law to accept bets, and yes that might cause some rooms to abandon ship to be on the safe side, but unless gaming execs actually come to the us not much can be done. Look at Sports books, sports betting has been clearly illegal for decades, and there are tons of books still taking us wagers. Why? Cause they know not much can be done about it from the US pov

[/ QUOTE ]

The US cannot regulate other countries.. correct... However, the US can and has impose laws on any company doing businesson US soil. In the last couple months, mutiple gaming execs were picked up in US... did you miss this? When you do business in another country, you bet your behind you subject yourself to that countrys laws... Now, as you said.. you can avoid that by staying out of the country... So, please tell me now that pokerstars execs and Lee Jones himself will all fly off to live rest of their lives in the caymans...just so they can keep their US customer base? Of course they WONT, money is money.. they will just make less and push internationally.

All legit companies that want to keep their business will not risk dealing with this legislation.. see the 888 and partygaming decisions.. As far as players go... The banks will be breaking US laws by transferring 1 dollar to gambling entities and connected entities (neteller). So only diehards who will go to great lengths to get money into offshore accts will be playing.

please tell me if this all sounds crazy... I think majority of posters and players need to wake up.

ginzorella

[/ QUOTE ]


Legal opinion seems to be that payment processors likely wont affected, there may be no hoop jumping at all. You realize the reason more gambling ceos havent been held in the US is because they generally AVOID it? Citing the sports betting example yet again, its been fairly clearly illegal for quite a while, tell me how hard it is to place a sports bet? Or if the fish care if its illegal? Or if the company cares? People like Nolan Dolla or Lee Jones or whoever may very well resign, that doesnt mean pokerstars will. I really doubt online poker will die, there will be turmoil for a while and site hierarchy will be changed, but its too much of a cash cow to ignore, and frankly they've known that they were travelling in legally murky waters in US for a while. As long as its legal in their country(esp places like antigua who are giving the US the finger) there will be online poker.

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The sky's falling, the sky's falling. I rather anticipate more will carry weight from Rizen's words than a 4-post "the end of the world" paranoid.

[/ QUOTE ]

NH...

Re: Is anyone reconsidering decision to play poker professionally?
 

I feel rather silly getting this I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] the American Government tatoo.