Suited connectors out of position
 

PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($99.35)
BB ($70.25)
UTG ($29.30)
UTG+1 ($6.35)
Hero ($37.05)
MP2 ($45.35)
MP3 ($58.35)
CO ($11.40)
Button ($49.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, MP2 calls $1.50, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls $2, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($9.25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $5</font>

This hand happened about 5 hands after sitting down and I had not seen him play any other pots. So my question was what do you guys think about the hand so far? What do you think about the call preflop? Do I lead out on the flop or check-call or check fold? Thanks for the input.

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

pf is fine.

the RR is tiny.

Flop i might just fold, or call and try to rep diamonds if one hits the turn w/ a c/r AI. Its tricky, because a very plausible hand for him is AK, and if a J hits, it will be difficult if he puts heat on you.

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

true. I couldn't put him on, AK, though, because the flop bet seemed too strong. Instead I had him on an overpair or AQ. The pf reraise suggested to me that he wanted action. Also, I was wondering what would you think about leading the flop?

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

I'd make a 4BB raise preflop. Small quibble.

Normally I'd lead a nice draw like this for 7 or 8.

but g. is right, AK is just too likely, as are other reraising hands like TT+.

So I don't mind the check. Now that 5 dollar bet is small- either scared or drawing. It makes me think AK is *more* likely, not less likely. I'm thinking JJ or AK. Both of which make your hand junk. And with the diamond draw out there- yuck.

I'm folding here unless I have really good control of villian.

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

Thanks. A little off topic, but I was wondering, why do you suggest a bigger raise preflop. I used to usually raise 4bb preflop. But from my experience I seem to get an almost equal FE with the 3bb raise. I also found that it opened up my range quite a bit. So that I began to get more action on my big hands and put more pressure on my opponents.

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

I think if you raise to 3 BB w/ SC/small PP and 4 BB with AK etc/big PP, even the donks will notice.

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

It's your thread, and if you want to go OT, fine, I guess.

I like 4BB for two reasons.

One- too many people call my 3BB bets with speculative hands. I generally want one caller with a predictable hand like AJ OOP. Calling small bets with speculative hands is my job. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If you get the same results with 3BB, cool.

Two- I want the pots I'm in with the best hand in the best position to be bigger than the pots my opponents would create with the same hand in the same position. This creates a constant flow of money from them to me as long as the cards break even- which they do, in the long run. At tables where 4BB is the standard, I'll make my standard 5BB.

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

What I meant was that almost all of my raises are 3BB. The raises are only bigger if there are limpers ahead of me.

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two- I want the pots I'm in with the best hand in the best position to be bigger than the pots my opponents would create with the same hand in the same position. This creates a constant flow of money from them to me as long as the cards break even- which they do, in the long run. At tables where 4BB is the standard, I'll make my standard 5BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes does make sense. I guess the way that I have always thought about it was that I will make most of my money after the flop and that my money will come from making better decisions from my opponents postflop.

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Two- I want the pots I'm in with the best hand in the best position to be bigger than the pots my opponents would create with the same hand in the same position. This creates a constant flow of money from them to me as long as the cards break even- which they do, in the long run. At tables where 4BB is the standard, I'll make my standard 5BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes does make sense. I guess the way that I have always thought about it was that I will make most of my money after the flop and that my money will come from making better decisions from my opponents postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the Negreanu school of thought. Nothing wrong with it, if you can make it work.

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

Think of the whole 4xbb vs 3xbb thing this way:

By putting in one more BB preflop the pot is 2bb bigger on the flop.

Now youre betting 2bb more with a PSB than you would have, so when he calls you are getting in 4 extra BBs than you would have.

Then on the turn, you pot again and get in 8 extra BBs.

By the river, you can 3/4 pot or full pot and get in around 12-16 more bb on average.

So by using 4x instead of 3x, when you flop a monster and get looked up you win much bigger pots on average.

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

But at the same time, doesn't putting in the extra BB, commit more of your money whan you have less information? For example, say I decide to raise from late position with a speculative hand like 89s. I raise 4BB, and get a call from one of the blinds. I now know that I am most likely behind, but unless I have a really good read I still have him on a wide range of hands. I have now put 4BB into the pot, but am still without a great deal of information.

Say on the other hand that I raised 3BB instead of 4. Sure, the opponent has a slightly larger range of hands, yet it is still almost certain that I am behind at this point. Furthermore, if my opponent has a big hand (1010+, AQ+) he is more likely to put in a reraise, because with a hand like that, he wants either a big pot, or, at least not to have to play the hand through out of position.
Now lets say the opponent just calls with my 3BB raise. As I mentioned before, with 95% of opponents I will put them on a wide range of hands, but still, one that probably beats me right now.

I guess my point is that regardless of whether I put in 3BB or 4BB, I am seeing the flop with a very limited amount of information, and that I wont be able to begin to know what he has until after the flop. Putting in 3BB as opposed to 4BB allows MY range to be greater which gives my opponent less information.

I hope this makes sense, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

bump?

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

dude your range can be exactly the same with 3bb or 4bb raises

Re: Suited connectors out of position
 

I think you have to be a better hand reader than any of us at this level are to make the game you are taking about work well. Not saying it won't work, but....

... any of us can win big in the micros or small stakes with simple tight play with well sized bets thanks to the geometric effect described by Tuba.