KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

That's a generally question that I'm curious about (in different positions, raised into, ect.). Here's the hand that prompted this: WSEX $5k guar. mid way through

Seat 7 is the button. Small Blind $75, Big Blind $150

SB, amount $500
BB, amount $5,500
Player 1, amount $1,750
Player 2, amount $1,250
Player 3, amount $2,750
Seat 4 (playing) : Player 4, amount $2,500
Seat 5 (playing) : KQs, amount $5,250
Seat 6 (playing) : Player 6, amount $3,250
Seat 7 (playing) : Player 7, amount $3,250

SB: Small Blind ($75)
BB: Big Blind ($150)
Player 1: Fold
Player 2: Fold
Player 3: Raise ($450)
Player 4: Fold
KQs: Call ($450)
Player 6: Fold
Player 7: Raise ($1,000)
Player 8: Fold
Player 0: Fold
Player 3: Fold
KQs: xxxxx?

Reads: Player 3 is pretty solid, and I put him on a low pair (he has bluffed some big pots and has been selective on his starting hands). Player 7 has not been in many pots yet, so he is tight. Blinds start at $20, so only the better players are left now. Player 3 took a while to fold, which made me think it was definetly a pair. My table image is good, but I've obviously won a few bluffs. I'm playing about the same number of pots as player 3.

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

Well, you have to call preflop now. 550 into 2K+ pot.

You're in an interesting spot if you just flop top pair. If you check, he probably shoves and you'll have to decide whether to call with top pair/decent kicker. If you bet out and he shoves, you'll have to call because it won't be much more to call.

Since he re-raised to 1000 and now only has 2250 left, you have to believe he's getting the rest of those chips all in with a pot like that regardless of what hits on the flop.

I think an open-shove would be an okay idea if you flop top pair. Put him to a decision because if you don't, then he'll do the same to you.

So, if you flop top pair, your top options are check/fold or open-shove.

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

BTW, what do you think of the initial call in this position? I think it's too early for a good push, to likely to get trapped all in. But then this happens...

I like calling in this position, however. But if I get a K or Q on the flop, I'm pushing all in most likely, or check/call his all in, actually, given as you said, 'he's pot committed to an all in'.

I don't raise KQs in early position, but in mid or late, I would probably make a raise of $1k or so if there were 2 previous caller of large bets, hopefully to take the pot down or get the one caller (lessen the chance of trips).

iH8poker

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

I voted fold b/c I fold KQs the first time it is raised from EP.

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

Well...I was holding back for the 'grand finale' but I agree with folding if you are in early position to a raise...given the small raise, it's a tough fold but, either way, I decided there are better pots to play in. Early position KQs is not that good really, even early AQ is though.

The reraiser had AA and the flop had two of my suit. He won and I busted a little later.

I pushed all in preflop.

iH8poker

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

Fold to the first raise, but if you call you have to call when he raises to 1k, pushing is so bad here.

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

Hate it. KQ is a nothing hand. You cannot stand a reraise In a raised pot it needs help on the flop and the majority of time it will miss. Even if you hit you could be dominated by AQ or AK. I would rather have a suited 65.

regards

Ross

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

It's a trap hand following the raise. Dump it preflop.

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's a trap hand following the raise. Dump it preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. This was by far my worst hand of the tourney, obvious tilt. I often tilt when I play only one table at a time after an hour or two. Fortunately, as it turns out, I lost an all in a few hands later that I was highly favored to win, and then lost AK in late position after button called. A on flop, he got trips. I was all in preflop BUT if I had more chips, they certainly would have been lost here...so this mistake cost me little in the end.

But no more! At one time people were putting KQs with AQo, but in EP both these hands kinda suck. You can get trapped easily...but generally you're not against AA [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] if pushed / trapped.

Well, that's how NOT to play KQs...I would like to see some big hands made off of this starting hand (and not a miracle hand, preferably).

iH8poker

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

only against a super conservative player would i fold. against any other i would call to see a flop simply based on the pot odds. if you outdraw him, the implied odds are good that you can now take control of the table with a the big stack, and if you muck post-flop when you hit nothing, you still have decent chip position for now.

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

Yea, I don't think that is too bad either, but you gotta ask yourself, what is a good flop here and the chances? I haven't calculated it exact, but you got to call 20% of the pot. Your awesome flops are 3 flush, 9TJ or AJT, KKX or QQx, or KQx...I don't know the odds of those, but I figure they are low. Anyone know the chances of either of those 6 floping (combined)? Then you got JTx or flush, flush, x.

But let's say it's Kxx. He has $2k and the pot is $2.5k at this point. I like pushing here but that is probably the worst move as only better hands call you. If you check, I guess you can fold an all-in (your saying that you'll lose 65% of the time or more) but it would be a hard fold. I'd feel a bit better about calling his all in than pushing my own (and seeing if he calls [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] )

But the actually flop was h,h,A. So I had 2 of my suit, and there is an Ace. Can you fold? Not really...the flush will complete about 35% of the time, so you have pot odds on that alone, plus the minor JT, KK, QQ runners possibilities. So you gotta push for fold equity...I guess KK or QQ would fold if you pushed, and possibly AQ. That leaves only AK or AA [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] calling you, and your draws beat them...so the push is good.

Hum...I don't know but after looking at it that way maybe the call is worth, as you need a playable hand only 1/5 of the time.

iH8poker

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
only against a super conservative player would i fold. against any other i would call to see a flop simply based on the pot odds. if you outdraw him, the implied odds are good that you can now take control of the table with a the big stack, and if you muck post-flop when you hit nothing, you still have decent chip position for now.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG! KQs sucks against an EP raise. I'd rather have 87s than KQs. You are far too often dominated with hand like KQs than with low connecting cards. Not to mention the fact that you don't even have great position in this hand yourself (still plenty of people who haven't acted yet).

Garbage garbage garbage. Throw the damn thing away!

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

What are you expecting to be beating pre-flop? Against a raise & reraise, I think you're looking at either a high pair, or a strong A, even more so with a tight player.

Under these conditions, KQs is effectively a drawing hand as you are very unlikely to be ahead.

Fold IMO.

Re: KQs in NL tourney preflop?
 

Fold to the first raise preflop, especially if your read on the first guy was that he was solid. You put him on a little pair because that's what you wanted him to have. In reality, his range of raising hands certainly include AK and AQ.

The way you played it, I might call the reraise in hopes that the first raiser would just call and not reraise, but I'd probably usually fold at that point too because my implied odds aren't great and I don't even want to go broke with top pair given the preflop action, it's basically turned into a drawing hand for flush/straight draws.