why was this law passed?
 

I understand that there are probably a number of reasons.

I always thought the US just wanted a cut of the profits for online gambling in addition to pleasing the Christian and other lobbies that want to ban online gambling for moral reasons.

My question is what did Frist and the others responsible for online gambling language being attached to the bill gain? Has the language of the bill opened up doors for the US to somehow profit on this by allowing it to keep happening? It is difficult for me to beleive that this was attached for moral reasons + reaching "moral" voters alone.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

as I see it Frist did this to score brownie points so he can get some nice fat campaign donations (and maybe a bunch of extra votes) when he runs for pres in 2008.

The older (and wiser ??) I get the more convinced I become that no politician in the history of the world has EVER done anything for "moral" reasons alone - there always is some ulterior motive and it usually involves a significant amount of money. Tho perhaps I am a little too cynical.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

The thing is that it is no that big of an issue. I come from Southern Baptist family that votes Republican (many from TN). I have talked to them about it and they really had no opinion one way or the other on it. They also do not know of my poker playing so that did not influence them.

They are much more concerned about other issues.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

obviously you're not educated in the system of our nation. Internet gambling is a DIRECT threat to port security. Just the other day they caught a guy with an illegal gun hiding inside a shipping container. And what exactly was he doing hiding in shipping container you might ask. He was immersed in a $10 Rebuy tournament on partypoker through his palm pilot.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

Isnt it also supposed to prevent terrorists from washing and transfering money?

Maybe if the american senators played some poker they would increase their logical thinking somewhat. Im european and surprised to see USA becoming like this. Probably the last place one would think should restrict personal freedom, liberty and individualism.

I saw somewhere that 5000 americans die every year from food poisoning. Compare that to the number dead from terrorism and one get perspective. Still when we turn on Fox or CNN we dont see programs about "the war on food poisoning" and alike.

So clean some restaurants instead of banning this and that and it would actually save more lives without altering the way people live their lives. Cant belive this crap.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

My parents and their friends are all very conservative also (very pro George W., Rush Limbaugh, etc) and they don't know anyone who has issues with gambling on the internet and they think this is a non-issue.

i think many conservatives and southern baptists even feel that way.

But by taking charge here and leading the way for this Frist can still score points with the Christian leaders...even if many of their very own Christians don't think this is a very big deal.
It's Frist actually getting to say that he did something to 'save the children and addicts' and try to make himself look good by combating such an evil situation.

In short, he'll get some funds, and he'll get to say he did something positive.
And he probably really does think it really is a bad thing.
They see these 'rogue' type sites from 3rd world countries and they make a distinction in their mind that that alone makes it way worse than the horse-racing or lottery stuff somehow.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

sounds like something that would happen in China rather than the US, being land of the free and all that. I'm sure it has nothing to do with morals, but money, and thats the reason why it will be probably be sorted out in the end, whenevr that may be.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

Let me start by saying that I'm an avid poker player online and I hate Bill Frist. I believe in a small government that shouldn't be telling me how to spend my money.

THat said, I understand the reasoning behind the ban. Poker does not contribute positively to society. While it may be a game of skill, it is still a dangerous way that could potentially lose a great deal of money immediately. Comparing it to something like horseracing isn't fair, as horse races are not something you could blow your fortune on every day with the click of a mouse... for one thing, horse races aren't held every day.
It's also unfair to compare gambling to investing in the stock market. Investing in the stock market helps our economy by providing capital for companies that provide us goods and services. Any similar connection with poker would be tenuous at best. Even skill-less forms of gambling such as the lottery benefit local school systems.

Again, I don't think it's any of the government's business how we spend out money, but pretending that poker is a positive aspect of society is a stretch. Professional poker players aren't really contributing much of anything to society.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

underage online gambling, households ruined by degenerate gamblers who have wifes and kids and they suffer, usa government not taxing this and not able to create employment within us boundaries from online gambling. There's a few for you.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

understand what reasoning? I thought it was because of all the untaxed cash moving out of the US to the poker companies.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

the wreck - That is only one of the reasons.

Frist and others are really concerned (at least they pretend to be) with the morals of gambling and how it can ruin families and how easy it is for kids to do it too.


I agree with your assessment that this whole 'land of the free' thing for the U.S. seems to be somewhat hypocritical in light of actions that our government takes on a regular basis.

But this is hardly an original idea and is held by many Americans who are frequently disgusted with some of our country's actions.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

Imagine the following hypothetical commercial ad in support of Frist:

"Congress tried to do something about internet gambling for 10 years, but instead of doing anything, the online problem just exploded. Internet Gambling destroyed lives. People lost their house with a simple click of the mouse. Even children were becoming slaves to the online gambling addiction. Someone needed to do something, but who would do it? Who would step up and take on this difficult moral challenge? Frist would!

Vote for Frist--he'll get the job done!"

--Paid by the Christian Coalition, Supporters of Frist for President.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

As I understand it, Frist wanted to add a "moral victory" to his list of achievements to help his presidential run in 2008, and to suckup to Leach helping him with Iowa primaries or whatever, Im not very good at this stuff though.

And as far as how it passed, thats just how our system works. I remember the first time I saw the Simpsons episode where Krusty becomes a congressman and attaches his Airplane ReRouting Bill to the must pass "Flags for Orphans" bill I didnt even believe our political process could be so horribly constructed, but hey, there it is.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

...and there ya have it

Re: why was this law passed?
 

Poker sites have lots of money. They were being forced to spend a lot of it fighting this bill and more trying to influence the inplimentation, challenge it courts, try to repeal it, find ways around it etc.

It is important that the politicians get a cut of any industry, particularly a questionable one. They also may not mind destroying the industry.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

I hear repeatedly about reasoning for the poker ban being, "man loses everything gambling , his family suffers ect.".Its the same arguement used for every prohibition of all victimless crimes.Here is a thought.Maybe if a man choses to destroy himself, he is the problem not the means he uses to accomplish this.Its called personal responsibility and is something that comes along with freedom and or living in a free society.But what do i know,im not christian.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

Poker sites have very little money compared to B&M, not to mention hundreds of millions of dollars of tax is avoided and this helps to solidify his Christian Fundamentalist base and you've got really no compelling reasons not to.

It sucks for us, but is sweet for him.

You don't think Harrah's, MGM etc all wanted this passed more than anyone?

Re: why was this law passed?
 

You are obviously a commie, pinko, leftist, liberal, demo scum who doesn't understand.

As is evidenced by your phrase -- "illegal gun."

Read the 2d Amendment [censored]: No guns are illegal.

[the immediately preceeding post brought to you by sarcasm dot com.]

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]
They are much more concerned about other issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is much truth to the notion that Frist in playing to the social/"christian" conservative leadership with this ploy. Essentially proving his regressive social policy bona fides by saying "see I am your lapdog."

Should he succeed and indeed need their support in primaries or even capture the nomination and run in the general in 2008 there will be plenty of time to figure out which social issues will have the best effect in getting earnest social conservatives like your family out to the polls. These two activities have little to do with each other.

In the meantime, sending some of your poker money to candidates who will see that Frist's likely successor in Republican Senate leadership, the truly aweful Mitch McConnell, is not the majority leader, is a good idea.

Look at the Talent(R)/McCaskill(D) race in Missouri, the Dewine(R)/Brown(D) race in Ohio and the Santorum(R)/Casey(D) race in Pennsylvania. Each of the Republican incumbents will continue to mine the political gold of regressive social issues if we let them. Their opponents, besides being solid public servants, will help shift the majority to the "let's-not-divide-and-conquer-with-invasive-social-legislation" party.

Of course, depending on where you live, there's lots more you can do beyond contributing money to the campaigns.

My fingers are crossed.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

remember frist's caucaus or whatever in iowa with leach about six weeks ago? this is somethinf frist is doing to bolster his standing among social conservatives, which will definitely help him win the primary when you consider that the other frontrunners aren't as socially conservative as he is. i think this is more of a primary election tactic than anything, frist has to get the nomination first.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

Here’s a list of the types of firearms that are generally illegal to own under federal law:

* Fully automatic machine guns
* Gun with an obliterated serial number
* Gun not detectable by a walk-through metal detector
* Shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches, or an overall length less than 26 inches
* Rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or an overall length less than 26 inches
* Silencer

It's a good thing my silenced, fully automatic, 17 inch barrel, non detectable by metal detector, obliterated serial number with a detachable 15 inch rifle barrel shotgun is safely under my bed.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

Somehow I wonder if these Bible thumpers realize that they are likely putting hundreds or thousands of third world people out of jobs...

Maybe we could get a list of all the families that lose their jobs in Costa Rica, Antigua and all the other weak economies that had been thriving with decent paying jobs that gaming companies provided.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

There are hundreds of horse races run every day. Even races from Australia and Hong Kong can be bet on. I stopped betting on them because (IMO) it's more like veterinarian racing than horse racing. Too many drugs.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even skill-less forms of gambling such as the lottery benefit local school systems.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's only because they're taxed. If they just made online gambling legal like normal B&M gambling is in many areas, they'd tax the hell out of it, too, and once again schools and so forth would benefit.

And while I didn't see anyone arguing that poker is a positive thing for society, I think you could make the argument that it is some small positive in that it is one of america's favorite pastimes. Long before the Hold Em boom, Americans were regularly having their "poker night," and now it's even more prevalent. It's a legitimate pastime and the pros are a form of entertainment, just like sports. Obviously, I don't think that's a huge monstrous benefit to society, but it's something.

As someone else mentioned, if it wasn't for poker, degenerates would just gamble on something else. If they couldn't gamble on something else, they'd take up drugs. If they couldn't find drugs, it'd be alcohol... and so on. These degenerate addict types just need to go life-busto before they're ever going to have a chance at turning their lives around. Getting rid of online poker/gambling isn't going to change that at all.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here’s a list of the types of firearms that are generally illegal to own under federal law:

* Fully automatic machine guns
* Gun with an obliterated serial number
* Gun not detectable by a walk-through metal detector
* Shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches, or an overall length less than 26 inches
* Rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or an overall length less than 26 inches
* Silencer

It's a good thing my silenced, fully automatic, 17 inch barrel, non detectable by metal detector, obliterated serial number with a detachable 15 inch rifle barrel shotgun is safely under my bed.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got one too? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]

i think many conservatives and southern baptists even feel that way.



[/ QUOTE ]

I live in NC so I am surrounded by Southern Baptists I can tell you that they wonder aloud why this is even an issue. They feel pretty much like the rest of us. There are more important issues and the government has no business in the matter. It's not going to score many brownie points with them. Myself. I have votd for exacly one Democrate in my life. I am voting straight ticket Dem this time. I'm not ready to go over to the darkside yet but sometimes in order to rebuild a house you have to tear down the old one.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let me start by saying that I'm an avid poker player online and I hate Bill Frist. I believe in a small government that shouldn't be telling me how to spend my money.

THat said, I understand the reasoning behind the ban. Poker does not contribute positively to society. While it may be a game of skill, it is still a dangerous way that could potentially lose a great deal of money immediately. Comparing it to something like horseracing isn't fair, as horse races are not something you could blow your fortune on every day with the click of a mouse... for one thing, horse races aren't held every day.
It's also unfair to compare gambling to investing in the stock market. Investing in the stock market helps our economy by providing capital for companies that provide us goods and services. Any similar connection with poker would be tenuous at best. Even skill-less forms of gambling such as the lottery benefit local school systems.

Again, I don't think it's any of the government's business how we spend out money, but pretending that poker is a positive aspect of society is a stretch. Professional poker players aren't really contributing much of anything to society.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't do the horse racing thing but I have looked into doing it merely for entertainment value. I am pretty sure you can find a horse race to bet on 365 days a year. Yes you can blow your wad on this.

The positive value of poker: It is one of the few segments in the US economy where we may have a trade surplus.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The positive value of poker: It is one of the few segments in the US economy where we may have a trade surplus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pointless.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The positive value of poker: It is one of the few segments in the US economy where we may have a trade surplus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pointless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being sarcastic

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let me start by saying that I'm an avid poker player online and I hate Bill Frist. I believe in a small government that shouldn't be telling me how to spend my money.

THat said, I understand the reasoning behind the ban. Poker does not contribute positively to society. While it may be a game of skill, it is still a dangerous way that could potentially lose a great deal of money immediately. Comparing it to something like horseracing isn't fair, as horse races are not something you could blow your fortune on every day with the click of a mouse... for one thing, horse races aren't held every day.
It's also unfair to compare gambling to investing in the stock market. Investing in the stock market helps our economy by providing capital for companies that provide us goods and services. Any similar connection with poker would be tenuous at best. Even skill-less forms of gambling such as the lottery benefit local school systems.

Again, I don't think it's any of the government's business how we spend out money, but pretending that poker is a positive aspect of society is a stretch. Professional poker players aren't really contributing much of anything to society.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply put, this line of logic does not work. America is a free country, and nothing you do has to contribute to society.

Besides that, the internet gambling ban is extremely hypocritical as we all know. Blackjack, craps, slots, etc all are games of 100% luck with an edge to the house and are allowed in casinos everywhere. Every day people blow money on the lottery where they have no edge, both online and off. Horse racing, fantasy football, etc. is all allowed as well. The only difference between all of these things and online poker is that the U.S. gets nothing from it. The ban is about money and money only. Clearly it has nothing to do with morals, and if it did then that would be unconstitutional. Seperation of church and state rings a bell there. You can not claim to be a country of freedom and then tell people what they can and can not do in their own homes. If people have gambling problems, they will just go gamble in their local casino or with a bunch of buddies, that's all there is to it.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

From the New York Times 30 September:

[ QUOTE ]
...At the urging of conservative groups and the National Football League, among other interests, the port security measure carried legislation cracking down on Internet gambling by prohibiting credit card companies and other financial institutions from processing the exchange of money between bettors and Web sites. The prohibition, which exempts some horse-racing operations, has previously passed the House and Senate at different times but has never cleared Congress.


“Although we can’t monitor every online gambler or regulate offshore gambling, we can police the financial institutions that disregard our laws,” said Senator Bill Frist of Tennessee, the majority leader, who lobbied to add the crackdown to the port bill...

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]
America is a free country

[/ QUOTE ]
I have never laughed so much in my life [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: why was this law passed?
 

I understand why the NFL wants it to look like they're against gambling, but to actually fight against it? unreal

Re: why was this law passed?
 

No, bang on actually.

Re: why was this law passed?
 

if you're a smart player who's making money, you should be paying taxes or you're just looking for trouble...sorry if this is a downer, but its just like freelance income in that respect.

horseraces take play everyday - ditto on the preious post..

Re: why was this law passed?
 

With Bill Frist being a doctor, I would think he would tackle cigarrete smoking [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: why was this law passed?
 

I live in Delaware the little wonder. Gambling is supposedly illeagal here in casino form and I guess now in online form too but I can take a 15 minutes walk to Delaware park and bet on horses or the mindless coin eating machine they call slots. Ive gone with freinds a few times and found this place to be totally point less. Poker is so different filled with lots of fun and complexity of skill and sense I started playing this is the only thing Ill never get tired of studying. The govnt just wants the money only reason y these mindless horse tracks are around. They are so full of [censored] trying to ban onine poker and if I met Frist in life Id have to smack him around with my dick while my friend video tapes it so I could post it on the net. Frist= tool

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Professional poker players aren't really contributing much of anything to society.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmm I pay an assload of taxes, donate to multiple charities, and spend lots of my money on goods and services. I bet I "contribute" more to society than most. And what kind of argument is "If a person doesn't "contribute" x amount to society you should outlaw their profession"?

- Jeff

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]
With Bill Frist being a doctor, I would think he would tackle cigarrete smoking [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Cigarrets have the same qualities as online gambling. They are both addictive, affect children, and can tear a family apart. The difference? $$$$

I have said all along that the B & M cardrooms are the key. If they want online gambling, then it will be legal and regualted (and taxed).

Re: why was this law passed?
 

[ QUOTE ]
as I see it Frist did this to score brownie points so he can get some nice fat campaign donations (and maybe a bunch of extra votes) when he runs for pres in 2008.

The older (and wiser ??) I get the more convinced I become that no politician in the history of the world has EVER done anything for "moral" reasons alone - there always is some ulterior motive and it usually involves a significant amount of money. Tho perhaps I am a little too cynical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the primary reason. I don't think he will run many ads on the issue, because it just isn't a winner. But the leadership will write bigger checks to him (or at least so he calculates) and he can use that money to run ads to increase his name recognition. Don't forget that he is not really *that* well known because Americans don't follow politics too closely. Some people don't know him at all and others don't know much about what he stands for.

Also, it's not easy to actually ban something and have as little impact on Americans as it is to ban online gambling. Yes we poker players lost our "job" or our primary source of income, but no official American jobs were lost. Imagine, for example, trying to ban B&M casinos now. There would be a huge uproar over how many Americans will lose their job.

The reality is that this legislation was politically advantageous to Frist, and the man has no scruples taking away the liberties and freedoms of others to advance his career. Whether he is moderately intelligent and aware of what he is doing, or just profoundly too stupid to understand the concepts of liberty and freedom, I don't have enough information to speculate on.