Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Let’s brainstorm about how the Internet gambling ban can be circumvented.

Rules for brainstorming:

1) Post any idea: brilliant, silly, a joke, stupid. It might give a good idea to someone else.

2) No criticism allowed of posts – it might prevent somebody with a good idea from posting.

I’ll go first.

Launder the money. Somebody outside the US starts a business. You transfer money to them from your favorite online gambling site; they write you a check or transfer the money.

Or, use Neteller to buy stuff, gift certificates etc at online merchants outside the US. Give the stuff as presents. Sell it on EBay.

Neteller is a publicly traded company. They could allow purchase of their shares with the money. You cash out to your bank.


Your turn.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Bro is this thread meant to be serious? If yes, you need to do some reading.

jrbick

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

1) Play nothing but "online tournaments" for "free chips" and set prize pools with a donation fee to play.

2) set only 1 buyin to buy tokens in which we play a competitive arcade game of poker in which you can cash out tickets which win cool prizes, then set up a site where you can redeem cool prize vouchers for certain cash values, and then cash out through through the cool prize redeeming site.

More to come =)

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Well, this is a shot in the dark, but could it be a loophole that we are NOT really transfering money to a gambling site? I don't put my money into partypoker from my bank. I put it into neteller. Then neteller (A Canadian company [right?]) puts it into partypoker. I'm probobly WAY off, but it's a thought.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

I had this idea last night. So far, the response has been overwhelmingly positive, as you can see:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=1#Post7481173

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bro is this thread meant to be serious? If yes, you need to do some reading.

jrbick

[/ QUOTE ]

See rule #2

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

This may seem stupid but, wouldn't the ban not cover games of skill? I thought there was something on the books in CA that has poker noted as a game of skill.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

California's laws do not apply to the rest of the U.S.

The legislation specifically mentions games where chance is a factor in the outcome...or something like that. So this would easily include poker.


You do raise a different point however:

There is other language in there about not superceding other states' laws or something like that.
It hasn't been determined if individual states can choose to make online-poker legal if they want to.

So I wonder if there's an outside chance that online-poker (but not sports-betting) could be considered okay to play in California.
But it is already being determined that it is okay to 'play' poker anyway. Just not okay to accept the bets.
So I'm not sure it would make a difference at all.

But the fact that California has already made stipulations for poker as a 'game of skill' and that they should have SOME state's rights on the issue leaves open SOME extremely slim possibilities I believe.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, this is a shot in the dark, but could it be a loophole that we are NOT really transfering money to a gambling site? I don't put my money into partypoker from my bank. I put it into neteller. Then neteller (A Canadian company [right?]) puts it into partypoker. I'm probobly WAY off, but it's a thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neteller better start to rethink its business strategy and fee structures.

1. They need to immediately encourge non gambling business to use their processing services. Right now they would hard to emplain they do non gambling transactions. If I was neteller, on Monday I would announce fee free Ebay transactions for the next two months, then have a fee structure that is 33-50% discounted against Paypal's. To keep their gambling business in operation, they need to have a non gambling portfolio and use it as a loss leader.

2. They need to encourage debit card use and eliminate the transaction fees they charge to load cards. They easily could recover this fee income as they would receive a portion of the merchant fees. Even if they loose this small income stream if their players can not transfer back to US accounts they will not be a processing service in the long run.

US Banks will not take the enforcement angle lightly. Right now it be easy to block companies like neteller if they do not diversify their business model very quickly.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Move to Sydney

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, this is a shot in the dark, but could it be a loophole that we are NOT really transfering money to a gambling site? I don't put my money into partypoker from my bank. I put it into neteller. Then neteller (A Canadian company [right?]) puts it into partypoker. I'm probobly WAY off, but it's a thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neteller better start to rethink its business strategy and fee structures.

1. They need to immediately encourge non gambling business to use their processing services. Right now they would hard to emplain they do non gambling transactions. If I was neteller, on Monday I would announce fee free Ebay transactions for the next two months, then have a fee structure that is 33-50% discounted against Paypal's. To keep their gambling business in operation, they need to have a non gambling portfolio and use it as a loss leader.

2. They need to encourage debit card use and eliminate the transaction fees they charge to load cards. They easily could recover this fee income as they would receive a portion of the merchant fees. Even if they loose this small income stream if their players can not transfer back to US accounts they will not be a processing service in the long run.

US Banks will not take the enforcement angle lightly. Right now it be easy to block companies like neteller if they do not diversify their business model very quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

excellent post

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bro is this thread meant to be serious? If yes, you need to do some reading.

jrbick

[/ QUOTE ]

See rule #2

[/ QUOTE ]

rule #2) No criticism allowed of posts – it might prevent somebody with a good idea from posting.

This is my new signature line.

MS Sunshine

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

What if pokerstars started taking bets on Horseracing? Would this exclude them from the ban?

I'm pretty sure western union would still work but the fee are pretty high.

What if pokerstars encourged players to fund other players accounts through player to player transfers. ie. respected player sets up a site or means to recieve money from players that want to re-load. After respected player receives money he transfer it to the player wanting the re-load.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]
Neteller better start to rethink its business strategy and fee structures.

1. They need to immediately encourge non gambling business to use their processing services. Right now they would hard to emplain they do non gambling transactions. If I was neteller, on Monday I would announce fee free Ebay transactions for the next two months, then have a fee structure that is 33-50% discounted against Paypal's. To keep their gambling business in operation, they need to have a non gambling portfolio and use it as a loss leader.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter if they start accepting non-gambling transactions also. That doesn't change or negate the fact they DO accept gambling transactions. I understand what you're saying about having an explanation, but it still doesn't explain the gambling-related part of their business (or make it any more legal in the US).

Ebay owns Paypal, so they aren't going to allow Neteller to come in and undercut their own rates. Ebay wants nothing to do with anything gambling related.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

I posted this in legislation, but I'd be interested to hear the thoughts here also:


I play mainly for fun, but I'm as worried about this as anyone.

But, is there a simple, business-based solution for this problem? The way I see it, the problem as it stands now for gamers is that the two easiest ways of putting funds into an online account are credit cards and 3rd parties, like Netteller and Firepay. Since the majority of Firepay and Netteller's business is to do just this--put money into online accounts, they're a very easy target for US officials to stop transactions to, due to the high probability of those transactions being for gambling purposes.

However, what if a major company/bank overseas that is much more diversified stepped into this role? For instance, one of the large UK banks was to serve as a 3rd party. Since the transaction to a more diversified 3rd party could be for any number of reasons, wouldn't it be very hard for the US to limit transactions to this company?

It seems to me (if my thinking is correct) that there's an enormous potential for profit here for a 3rd party such as this that's willing to step in. Fact is, there's just too much money at stake here for everyone involved not to find a way around this. Is there a major hole in my idea, or am I missing something?

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

No, I don't think you're missing anything and I'm guessing a bank or two will step up to the plate for something like this.

The bank that does this though will be intentionally breaking U.S. law by allowing citizens to bank online via them though.
And any American with an account at that bank could come under scrutiny perhaps. Especially when it goes all the way to, "You have an account at Jim's Bank of France. And that bank is known as a funnel for online-poker sites. Which we all know is a scheme to fund terrorists."


If banks really want to mess with U.S. anti-terrorism stuff then that's up to them to analyze the profit.
It's not like the U.S. can go running to the other country and shut them down.
But it is something that I suspect many banks would be more interested in shying away from.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Here's a thought

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this yet in this (or any other) forum.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

this has been mentioned several times.

It's still a way to fund a poker-room. It is not a loop-hole and it would not work.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Not if you're only funding the horse room. Then the poker room funding would be done overseas and out of US jurisdiction.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

this would make the horse-room the same as neteller. It's a vehicle into a poker-room account.
So it would be disallowed.


I'm also not sure if the horse-betting exceptions are for U.S. licensed sites only...but this would also be an obstacle if true.


2+2'ers in the 3 or 4 other threads where this was thought of are smarter about this stuff than I am.
The general consensus is that a place that funds a poker-room would be illegal.
It doesn't matter if they happened to be doing something that is okay like horse-racing.


I could fund my gift-certificate account at some store in Europe and buy some widgets and gadgets and auto-parts there. And then use all the left-over money I have there to buy into PartyPoker.
But just because I bought a bunch of okay items at a legit online-store in Europe does NOT mean it's okay for them to fund an online-poker account for me.

I believe this example of using a 'legitimate' business to fund an online-poker account is relevant.
If it is funding an online-poker account for you then it is no longer allowed no matter what other transactions it allows that are perfectly legal.



However, the actual ability to enforce such companies that wanted to do something like this is definitely debateable.
But whether it's actually a loop-hole or not isn't really debateable as best I can figure this stuff out.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

In my opinion this discussion is pointless. There is a long way to go before we see how this is going to be implemented and enforced.

I'm 100% sure we will be able to work around it at that point. The real question will be whether the new players that bring in the new money that drives the poker economy will be willing and able to do it. I suspect the answer is no, but we'll just have to wait and see.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

The real answer is that we all need to become professional sports bettors on horse racing.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Something similar to this:

The Scattering

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Get an overseas friend to deposit your $ into his own Stars account, then have him go into Stars and transfer $ to your account. Do the reverse to withdraw, with your friend sending you the money by check or PayPal, etc.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

just look at party's deposit options right now. i can click one button and get sent to a site to buy a "phone card" with my creditcard and use it to fund my account. party could create dozens of these sites each week.
and as for withdrawls i wouldn't worry. if they start blocking those, party would probably start mailing us anonymous visa gift cards(which would only help me in my quest to not pay taxes)

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]
The real answer is that we all need to become professional sports bettors on horse racing.

[/ QUOTE ]
From what I hear, Ed Miller and Sklansky have already begun writing "Small Stakes Lotteries" and "Theory of Horses".

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Hey guys, I've been looking for the bill that the House passed and have been unsuccessful so far. I was wondering a few things:

1) Can someone send me a link that contains what the bill says

2) This still has to pass the Senate right? So we are safe until that happens?

If you could help answer these questions for me or at least point me in the direction to find them. Also, post any links that you feel are relevant to this topic. Thanks

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]


Neteller better start to rethink its business strategy and fee structures.

1. They need to immediately encourge non gambling business to use their processing services. Right now they would hard to emplain they do non gambling transactions.

[/ QUOTE ]

they dont do gambling transactions. if you mean transfering money to online casinos then yeah, but thats not a gambling transaction...Neteller isnt in the business of accepting bets. Anyway being an intermediary to online casinos is one facet of their business.

They do peer to peer transfers and have over 3500 merchants that accept neteller and daily transactions. Think of it as paypal but they also have the add on of doing transfers to say, Party. either way, they are diverse enough to seperate themselves by far, from say IGMpay which is just an intermediary to Party.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey guys, I've been looking for the bill that the House passed and have been unsuccessful so far. I was wondering a few things:

1) Can someone send me a link that contains what the bill says

2) This still has to pass the Senate right? So we are safe until that happens?

If you could help answer these questions for me or at least point me in the direction to find them. Also, post any links that you feel are relevant to this topic. Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]
Get with the times, this IS the senate. Just needs to be signed by the prez, which despite general theory of prob and statistics, has about a 196.7% chance of happening.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Yes, there's all plenty of ways for professional players to deposit and withdraw their funds to get around the ban. But are the fish going to bother with any of that when they can just go back to their home/live games? If a fish generally makes a deposit after he gets his pay check, is he really going to jump thru hoops every other week so he can give his money away like normal?

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Wow, I guess I didn't realize how far this had gotten. I'm still looking for what exactly the bill says. Anyone have any links for me? I'd really appreciate anything I can get so I can figure out what i'm going to do. Thanks.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I guess I didn't realize how far this had gotten. I'm still looking for what exactly the bill says. Anyone have any links for me? I'd really appreciate anything I can get so I can figure out what i'm going to do. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having trouble working the buttons on your mouse today? If you press the left button (called "clicking"), you'll see the text of whatever you are "pointing" to.

What\'s missing is this discussion
 

The banking element of this bill is easy to work around.

The last time I read the bill, which is right after it passed Congress, I was most scared by the third part which allows the goverment to tell our ISP's which sites they have to block access to. Beyond poker this element of the Bill is even worse. This Bill's author started this Bill with the arguement that gambling is immoral and we need to protect the children. What will they decide to block next. If some site like Amazon is selling something they decide they don't like it, are they next.

Better yet, if one party gains power can they decide the arguements of the other are immoral and block any site that discusses it.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Something similar to this:

The Scattering

[/ QUOTE ]

please explain this, i don't understand

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a sci-fi reference to a fictional mass exodus. You need to read the Dune novels to make the connection.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

Hello,

I had this simple idea that might be stupid, but who knows...

Say you want to deposit $500 on an online Poker Room but your U.S. bank won't let you.

How about you send that money to someone who does not live in the U.S., though Paypal for eample, and then that person transfers that money back to you on the poker room itself? (At least Pokerstars and Party allow you to do that) I think I see how a website could be set up to connect players who want to deposit and others who want to help.

Non-U.S. players could help U.S. players this way. Obviously, there's the trust issue, but that didn't stop Ebay from working.

Maybe as an incentive players who help make the deposit can retain à $5 flat fee or something similar?

Thoughts?

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

I'm sorry, but isn't the U.S. the "Land of the Free"?

WTF are you worrying about?

It's not like Hitler achieved power by passing one freedom restricting bill after another, after another...

No worries at all...

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

My phone card in and neteller out thread in the legislation forum.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hello,

I had this simple idea that might be stupid, but who knows...

Say you want to deposit $500 on an online Poker Room but your U.S. bank won't let you.

How about you send that money to someone who does not live in the U.S., though Paypal for eample, and then that person transfers that money back to you on the poker room itself? (At least Pokerstars and Party allow you to do that) I think I see how a website could be set up to connect players who want to deposit and others who want to help.

Non-U.S. players could help U.S. players this way. Obviously, there's the trust issue, but that didn't stop Ebay from working.

Maybe as an incentive players who help make the deposit can retain à $5 flat fee or something similar?

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]


many others have mentioned having a friend in Europe do this for you or something.

I'm not a big fan of this.

YOU finding a way to fund the site yourself actually isn't a felony.
But if somebody funds the site FOR you then that can be sonstrued as a felony.


So if they look through your bank-records and/or somehow determine that your $500 to your pal in England was to launder it to a poker-site then I think they can be held legally responsible for funding the gambling for you.

So this 'friend' of yours now would be bet to make sure he stays the hell out of the U.S.


This is all a VERY novice interpretation of a really long-shot circumstance that perhaps COULD happen.

But I really think you are better having a bank or something else overseas do it for you then using a 'friend' in Europe.


Also, it is entirely possible that it will remain relatively easy to fund the accounts from your bank to neteller, etc.

I just wanted to address one potential issue I have with the idea of using a friend in Europe because, to me, what they are doing looks more illegal then what you are doing and you shouldn't be asking that kind of 'favor' from anyone imo.

Re: Brainstorming: Ways Around the Internet Ban
 

[ QUOTE ]
My phone card in and neteller out thread in the legislation forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
This seems far and away the best option brought forth thus far.