How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

For depositing into sites:

1) You transfer by normal means to neteller
2) You then transfer from neteller to another e-wallet called "beteller" located in Costa Rica, which funds a poker site
3) You cashout from poker site back the same 2 step way

For IP issues:

1) Site client software routs to another site in another country which then routes to site server in Costa Rica
2) Sites use something similar to .net sites to attract new players but which don't actually allow that site's client downloads, instead linking you to a 3rd site where you download


Critical assumptions: Costa Rica which currently is home to so many sports sites which already don't care about current US laws which already were fairly clear under the wire act as sports betting over the net being illegal, or apparently extradite for violation of such betting laws, still don't after this bill is signed, the sites relocate there, and the execs never travel to the US.


OK lawyers, this work or not? I mean if every whorehouse that calls itself an escort service can advertise in the newspaper, then why not this or similar workaround? Basically you are adding an extra step or middleman to the existing ones.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

So any lawyers awake yet?

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

I hope it works. Thanks for taking time to think stuff up about it.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

Thanks. I'm as desparate to find workarounds as everyone is. Unfortunately, despite the fact that the big sites make billions and *should* have the best legal advice, they have through this whole legal mess and in other ways shown themselves not to be overly bright.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
For depositing into sites:

1) You transfer by normal means to neteller
2) You then transfer from neteller to another e-wallet called "beteller" located in Costa Rica, which funds a poker site
3) You cashout from poker site back the same 2 step way

For IP issues:

1) Site client software routs to another site in another country which then routes to site server in Costa Rica
2) Sites use something similar to .net sites to attract new players but which don't actually allow that site's client downloads, instead linking you to a 3rd site where you download


[/ QUOTE ]

Problem is if they block neteller, you wont be able to
FUND it...withdrawing from neteller to bank account
should be no problem...

I propose poker sites put links to online canadian
bank accounts that only require a faxed SS# and
ID...To keep it legal, all you have to do is show
you have a foreign bank account on your tax returns.
(100% legal here too). And your bank will never
block an EFT from bank to bank.

Mr K, says we dont have to worry about IP blocks...
Im not 100% convinced though...In any case, why
dont sites just launch a freakin satellite and
give all the players free sat. dishes, or somehow
send the signal to existing DISH/DIRECTTV subs...These are
billion dollar companies..they can actually afford
something this EXTREME.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

They won't have a reason to block neteller if they don't directly link to a poker site. That is the job of the second transfer e-wallet site which is based in Costa Rica or a similarly friendly country.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I propose poker sites put links to online canadian
bank accounts that only require a faxed SS# and
ID...To keep it legal, all you have to do is show
you have a foreign bank account on your tax returns.
(100% legal here too). And your bank will never
block an EFT from bank to bank.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

If you two mean us bank -> canadian bank -> neteller -> poker site, or even just us bank -> canadian bank -> poker site, then that works for me, *assuming* such canadian banks do let you start an account like that. Of course whether average joe is willing to go to that trouble, like with what I or others have suggested is unknown.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
They won't have a reason to block neteller if they don't directly link to a poker site. That is the job of the second transfer e-wallet site which is based in Costa Rica or a similarly friendly country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I see where your coming from..However, the gov. will
decide later after bill is signed, who to block, etc.
So if they suspect Neteller is doing something
shady, they just simply block them....

Ive been saying for years, Neteller needs to establish
itself in other things besides gambling...Auction
site, merchants, etc....They never made a big push on
this, now they will regret it.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

I agree. Which is why fps e-passporte is in better shape since their primary goal is to allow you to protect your actual credit card account info by using them as a middleman and their virtual credit card account that acts like a debit card.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

average joe is not going to be willing to go through the trouble of starting a Canadian bank account.

Right now, I'm more concerned with a work-around that I can actually use.

I understand, because somebody is ALWAYS pointing it out, that "the games will be dead anyway."

But, right now, I'm less concerned about the quality of the games because I think I can still win with RB and bonuses against a bunch of Europeans anyway.

I'm just concerned about ME being able to fund the account.
And if it is not very risky or illegal to have such transactions from a Canadian bank (or South America or wherever) then I'm perfectly willing to show up in person to set up that account.

And I would be perfectly willing to pay my full tax obligations as well.

Yes, the games are certainly going to be dying quite a bit.
But it appears it is still okay to actually PLAY the games (albeit somewhat less fishy ones).
It's just a pain to figure a workaround for funding.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

there is no possible way for the us govt to block neteller or ip.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you two mean us bank -> canadian bank -> neteller -> poker site, or even just us bank -> canadian bank -> poker site, then that works for me, *assuming* such canadian banks do let you start an account like that. Of course whether average joe is willing to go to that trouble, like with what I or others have suggested is unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes..

Ive never did it, but even if its hard an online
acct in canada (as
it is to get a swiss account), there has to be
other major countries that will allow it....This is
important imo, because it will be impossible
to block from a bankers point of view.

And it should be no more difficult to start then
a firepay or neteller account...perhaps an extra
step in FAXING or EMAILING your SS# and ID......

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

I was thinking this, surely Party could create a seperate entity such as "PartyBank" whereby you can put money into that bank. If you have money in that bank they would offer such incentives to move it into Party poker, however this would all be done externally to the US and therefore legally.

True

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
there is no possible way for the us govt to block neteller or ip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course they can, the chinese are blocking basically the entire internet.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
And if it is not very risky or illegal to have such transactions from a Canadian bank (or South America or wherever) then I'm perfectly willing to show up in person to set up that account.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what your saying..I myself would go to Canada to
do the same...I know you can definately do it in person.

I totaly 100% disagree that people wont go the "extra
step" to start an "online" foreign bank account.

Look at all the people that signed up for neteller and
had to verify their deposits and all that crap...Also
all sportsbooks require FAXING ID, etc...Its that
simple...they have plenty of US customers.

Im more worried about the IP blocking..MR K says
its not in the bill...Im not so sure...possilby a tough
work around here.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

re: canadian bank account: better check with neteller to see if they will link to a canadian bank account that belongs to a US citizen who resides in the US. In another recent thread someone indicated that neteller would not do that.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
But, right now, I'm less concerned about the quality of the games because I think I can still win with RB and bonuses against a bunch of Europeans anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I surprised that no one has yet mentioned that this piece of [censored] bill may have a negative effect on affiliates and rakeback, as well. Think about it.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking this, surely Party could create a seperate entity such as "PartyBank" whereby you can put money into that bank. If you have money in that bank they would offer such incentives to move it into Party poker...


[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if Id trust my $ in Bank of Party...But the
problem with this is, our banks will block EFT's to
Bank of Party...No different than Neteller issue..
You need a major legite bank like Cizitens Bank
of Canada, where they do so much business with the
U.S. banks already, it'll be impossible to block them.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
re: canadian bank account: better check with neteller to see if they will link to a canadian bank account that belongs to a US citizen who resides in the US. In another recent thread someone indicated that neteller would not do that.

[/ QUOTE ] I was aware of this policy for swiss
bank accounts...but it wouldnt surprise me if it held
for all countries...Whats stopping them from changing
this policy?

Also you could easily circumvent neteller, just
by using IGM-PAY ala Party (other sites would
need to offer similiar transfers).

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ive been saying for years, Neteller needs to establish itself in other things besides gambling...Auction
site, merchants, etc....They never made a big push on
this, now they will regret it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. When I contacted them as a website operator to set up a merchant account a few months ago, they said they only service the gaming industry. So they didn't just fail to push into other areas, they actively turned away non-gaming merchants.

I don't know what their reasoning was, but now they will pay the price big-time.

I read something years ago, which said that online gaming would not be banned outright for fear that it would spur the creation of an entirely online currency unregulated by any government. Money laundering and international transfers through this online currency would be simple, and law enforcement would be helpless.

Neteller could have been that online currency, but they blew it. Now we will need an intermediary between our banks and Neteller, or better yet some e-cash alternative to Neteller that's NOT limited to gaming.

Good job Neteller. Way to think ahead.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But, right now, I'm less concerned about the quality of the games because I think I can still win with RB and bonuses against a bunch of Europeans anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I surprised that no one has yet mentioned that this piece of [censored] bill may have a negative effect on affiliates and rakeback, as well. Think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually there is a chance it will help affiliates...
For example, give extra incentives for all affiliates
that can get existing or new players to take the
necessary "extra steps" to fund accounts.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

Poker sites use .net education based sites to link to their actual site. Actual site can rotate isp addresses.

Poker sites develop mail based bank whose info is on the .net site.

Of course, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

Sites will find a way for us to get our money in, don't worry about that. Neteller popped up when PayPal and credit cards stopped. I'm pretty sure Party Poker and others haven't set up dummy corps so they could "directly" take money from credit cards since they didn't want to seem shady and deal with the chargebacks. I see no reason they wouldn't do that if necessary, even if it was only to take payments from Neteller.

Worry about the sites not accepting US players. That would suck. I would like it known to all poker sites, I am willingly defying the laws of my country and quite proud to do it. Please use some of the massive, ridiculous amounts of money I have paid you to help fight this, and I'll gladly give you more.

Worry about the IP stuff if they decide to get heavy-handed. I don't see an easy way around it for our less intelligent friends. I don't see Comcast agreeing to block all of Costa Rica, but I suppose it is possible.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ive been saying for years, Neteller needs to establish itself in other things besides gambling...Auction
site, merchants, etc....They never made a big push on
this, now they will regret it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. When I contacted them as a website operator to set up a merchant account a few months ago, they said they only service the gaming industry. So they didn't just fail to push into other areas, they actively turned away non-gaming merchants.

I don't know what their reasoning was, but now they will pay the price big-time.

I read something years ago, which said that online gaming would not be banned outright for fear that it would spur the creation of an entirely online currency unregulated by any government. Money laundering and international transfers through this online currency would be simple, and law enforcement would be helpless.

Neteller could have been that online currency, but they blew it. Now we will need an intermediary between our banks and Neteller, or better yet some e-cash alternative to Neteller that's NOT limited to gaming.

Good job Neteller. Way to think ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is always anonymous egold. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post7485889

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

the problem with all of these "work arounds":

Many of these places have '1st world', big people working for them. IE US citizens, UK people who travel to the US, etc, etc...before today all of these people could say "well we're not really breaking any laws in the US".

Now, they can no longer say that.

If they begin designing anf implemetning work-arounds and all kinds of things designed to fool the US Gov't, they are admitting they are breaking the law, and are putting themselves at serious risk of federal charges. Any company with US excecutives will need to choose between flaunting the US Gov't by breaking the law - meaning those people can never come to the US, ie Lee Jones ie the new Party CEO - or they institute no work arounds and stop taking US play

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

Zod,

Calvin Ayre (Bodog) is rich and livin large in Costa Rica. He doesn't care about coming back here and neither would I if I were in his comfortable shoes.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

what about Party's American CEO? What about Lee Jones? Do you think these people - or any 'worldly exec' - don't care about coming to the US EVER AGAIN?

Ayre may be an exception, b/c as the owner and CEO, the guy is in a great spot. however, various other executives are not in his position.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

Maybe its just me, but being rich trumps living in the US.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe its just me, but being rich trumps living in the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

Zod,

Most likely the sites that survive and find a workaround for us will be owned and staffed by citizens of other countries who will gladly trade being rich or very well paid for not being able to come here. The world doesn't revolve around us unless it involves nukes.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe its just me, but being rich trumps living in the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

Zod,

Most likely the sites that survive and find a workaround for us will be owned and staffed by citizens of other countries who will gladly trade being rich or very well paid for not being able to come here. The world doesn't revolve around us unless it involves nukes.

[/ QUOTE ]

look, we'll see. But consider a company like Full Tilt - essentially owned by Howard Lederer, with sig. equity shared held by Ivey, Ferguson, Harmon, etc - all Americans. what are they going to do?

In addition, sites being willing to take US play is only 1 small part of the equation. you being able to deposit, withdraw, and play is another.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[censored] FT and party and stars. Who cares? We only want big sites that attract lots of fish. That most likely will be new sites and poker site world will change a lot. My prediction is Bodog could be such a big player and I addressed a thread in the zoo to them for hopefully a response from them.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

One thing is for sure...Ill be looking into that bank account in the Caymans now. They DEFINITELY allow transactions to Neteller and to my current bacnk acct

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

Canada is easier.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

It really is going to be dead easy to fund poker sites, there is no way they can stop it.

More than two years ago when credit card companies prohibited deposits to online gaming sites, and before Neteller really took hold, you could purchase phone cards and the like, then use the phone cards as cash to deposit into the poker sites.

The same thing is, and always will be possible. It is completely impossible for any bank to prevent this from happening.

As soon as your bank blocked a particular form of payment, another one would pop up literally over night, even within hours.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

Greg,

See my phone card thread on 2nd page of this forum.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

Im not sure why Mr K would say the bill doesnt include IP blocking. The way it reads imo is that the ISP is not required to police traffic to determine if the end server is a gambling site, but that if they are notified that a server is a gambling site they have to block it.

That means setting up a watchdog group to identify them, but it really shouldnt be that difficult.

What isnt clear to me is the cable workaround. Foreign owned satellite should work, but not enough players will bother. But if the law can be interpreted that (for example) the line from your house to Cox Cable and a satellite hookup from Cox Cable to a foreign based ISP does not make Cox an ISP (because Cox never connects directly to the Internet)then playing should be no problem. Funding would seem to have enough workarounds also, although immediate funding (as opposed to mail/B&M services like Western Union) might be gone.

There is a lot of emphasis in the bill on cooperation with foreign governments to prevent money laundering, but no teeth for prosecution of players that I can see.

The big gaming and internet law firms should have interpretations out in a week or so, hopefully they will filter down to us.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

Copernicus,

Just as with financial transactions, we need a 2nd middleman with internet routing. It shouldn't be insurmountable.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Copernicus,

Just as with financial transactions, we need a 2nd middleman with internet routing. It shouldn't be insurmountable.

[/ QUOTE ]

that was my point, the problem lies in the definition of an Interactive Computer Service:

( 2) Interactive computer service
The term “interactive computer service” means any information service, system, or access software provider that provides or enables computer access by multiple users to a computer server, including specifically a service or system that provides access to the Internet and such systems operated or services offered by libraries or educational institutions.


This is the law referenced by the bill. It looks very broad to me, and was probably intended to be so, because it was designed to prevent dissemination of kiddie porn.

A lot of middlemen can be caught up in that which is why I think that as a minimum the actual connection to the internet has to be offshore or satellite.

The definition includes "any....system". Home>Cable>Cable provider>Satellite>ICS>Internet still looks like a system to me, meaning the cable provider becomes an ICS.

That would leave direct to foreign owned satellite links the only workaround that I can see.

Re: How Bout These \"Loopholes/End Runs\"? (poker sites take note)
 

They're not going to hold your isp provider responsible for routing to another site which then routes to the final destination, because they just wouldn't be able to track that for all customers. Now the final destination is clearly in violation, but they have to not care, just like sports betting sites in Costa Rica.