Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

Any advice on where I can find resources on how to play Limit Omaha Hi?

My local casino spreads a 10/20 Texas/Omaha lap of each game. They play one round of limit hold'em, one round of limit Omaha. It is a soft game, and I'm confident I'm the best hold'em player in the game, but I'm equally sure that I'm losing in the game up to this point because of my Omaha inexperience.

The Omaha round typically has 6-7 players seeing every flop, with most of those also seeing the turn, lots of gambling and fishing for miracle cards, etc. I've read about how to play PLO - e.g., Lyle Berman's chapter in SSII - but most of the advice does not seem to apply to limit. I am not, as you can tell, an Omaha player.

The only two strategy articles I've read are this one: http://www.interpoker.com/strategy/o...strategy.shtml and this one: http://www.pokertips.org/strategy/ll-omaha.php

In line with this advice, I have played super-tight, folding a lot of hands pre-flop or on the flop, but still find myself losing as a result of big hands that don't hold up (e.g. top set) or big draws that miss. I have only played approximately 100 hours in this game (50 at Omaha), but I lack the experience to tell whether I am running bad or have serious leaks.

Where do I go to learn more?

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

I've never played, but I'm guessing a main difference between limit and PL Omaha hi is that second and third nut hands are more valuable in limit since the penalty for making one and paying off isn't as bad. I would also guess that straights go down in value as a result of it being correct for opponents to draw to weaker flushes/underfulls if they know you have a straight.

There's probably a lot more, but since I've never played the game I can't really make up much more that would be even close to accurate.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

In my (very limited) experience so far, second- and third-nut hands are almost worthless. Because so many people are calling and so many hands go to showdown, the nuts are almost always out there. I've been trapped, for example, calling down out of the blinds with the third-nut flush only to inevitably be shown the nuts.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

Your's is a hard question to answer briefly, but I'll try to point out a couple of things.

You want to play more high cards in the game you describe than in PLO. 9987ss can be big in PLO, but goes down in value in these games. It's harder to control the size of the pot and the number of players, so you are going to need bigger hands.

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but still find myself losing as a result of big hands that don't hold up (e.g. top set) or big draws that miss.

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Top set may not be a big hand in this game, it may just be a draw. Top set is always drawing to a board pair, but it is also drawing to no flush and no straight. Therefore, a) if you flop top set on a rainbow board it is more valuable than a suited board; b) it is better on an uncoordinated board; and c) you must play coordinated hands. If the flop is K92r, and you have KKQJ, you have 4 extra outs that you wouldn't have if you were playing KK73.

Pay attention to the culture of the table (aka Shania). Is the hold 'em round making the omaha round looser? Is the omaha round making the hold 'em round tighter? Knowing this can guide your play. What is considered a big hand in Omaha? Top pair? Top two? Middle set? If the players are jamming with TPTK, you'll have to get in there and jam along with them, or lose your action.

You might try checking the archives here and in RGP. There has been some limit omaha high stuff, but not much.

GL

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

I've played a good amount of limit Omaha on Party and I have a good winrate. I pretty much just jam the pot with sets and fish with any nut draws since you're almost always getting the right odds. Also don't be afraid to raise big draws in multiway pots when your equity permits it. I think that is where a lot of my profit comes from. Hands like two pair and TPTK gets you into way too much trouble when NOBODY folds, so I usually don't even bother with them. I mean I'll bet top two on a safe board, but I don't ever get my hopes up about it.

Also don't underestimate the importance of tight hand selection. Being suited is extremely important in Omaha and you'd prefer youd cards to be close to one another. Axs is your best friend. Do not overvalue AA because you know you're usually having a multiway showdown and they're rarely the best hand by then.

Variance in this game is HUGE, so you could just be unloucky right now for all you'd know.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

Be prepared for massive variance. PLO has high variance, but limit Omaha has such a humongous luck component that your variance goes through the roof. I would just play ridiculously tight.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

Limit Omaha Hi is like playing the lottery. Just about every draw always has odds to continue so basically it's playing a game of hoping your river card falls instead of the other guy's. Unless your opponents are retarded (which at 10/20 live, they very well may be) you can't really outplay them that much. Just make sure you're always on nut draws and not chasing things like underfulls or Queen-high flushes and the like.

Try to pick preflop hands that can make the absolute nuts, things like suited aces, paint pairs and wraps. What hands you should raise preflop? I never really figured that one out ... raising preflop turns it into a total crapshoot where you just deal them all out and see what wins. Raising pre trades a small amount of EV for a lot of variance in a game with enormous variance as it is.

This game can be very frustrating ... you can lose 30, 50, 80 bets in a single session very easily while playing better than all of your opponents. If bankroll is at all an issue ... if losing, say, 100 bets makes a big dent, then I would play tight during the omaha to reduce variance and exploit my edges at hold'em where a solid player has a larger advantage anyway IMO.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

Thanks for the advice all.

Your comments have confirmed my view about the massively high degree of variance in the game. As a hold'em player, who finds the variance in limit hold'em difficult enough, I think the higher variance in this game has also made it psychologically more difficult for me as well.

A pro I spoke to said you should have a 10k bankroll for this game, which I don't yet have. Losing 25 to 50 big bets in a session hurts, and it sounds as though that could be quite common, so perhaps I should just wait until I have the appropriate bankroll.

Thanks again.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

I don't think there's much info at all out there on this game ... it's kind of a weird thing where the postflop strategy and odds are all intuitive and straightforward and the preflop hand evaluation is much less intuitive.

Position is much less important in limit omaha than in PLO since the pots are so big and so contested that you can't put much pressure on anybody, and you can't control the pot size that much in position either b/c everyone plays staight up and if their hand is promising, money is going in regardless of position.

A couple of hands you will quickly find out are troublesome in limit omaha (IMO):

1) Bottom set. You fart on this hand and it's gonna get cracked. You flop bottom set and you have to dodge all kinds of things, e.g. anyone with top 2 ruins your boat draw, there will usually be some sort of straight draw out there, goofy crap like backdoor flushes and turned higher sets, basically every card in the deck will scare you. Middle set is better but still a little scary. Bottom set can be a big money loser and I would fold small pairs preflop bacause IMO bottom set isn't worth the headaches.

2) Flopped straights without redraws. I mean, you have the nuts, but you can be in a lot of trouble if the flop action gets heated. If everyone is jamming in a 4-way pot then you should be afraid ... someone else could share your straight with you and you are vulnerable to being outdrawn by higher straights, flushes, and boats. When you flop a straight, be aware that your hand is fragile. You should continue with them, but with no protection there are so many ways it can lose and you may not even be an equity favorite on the flop. Also, counterfeitable straight draws (e.g. 89xx on a Q76 flop instead of 89Tx) can be trouble as well.

Top set is a monster in this game and should be pressed hard ... but even then, if your set is the nuts on the flop, you can expect to lose with it close to half the time. Just the way it goes. Top 2 you pretty much just hope for the best though, if the flop texture and action make you smell a set you need to get out fast. It helps if you have an overcard or two to your top 2. Nut flush draws are big winners in this game and flush draw + any other kind of draw is a monster on the flop.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

I dislike limit Omaha high. There's a private game in my town that's the same setup, $10/$20 half limit holdem/half limit omaha high. Everyone is right. LOH has huge variance and little opportunity to outplay your opponents beyond showing better hand selection than them and getting away from the trap hands that they can't. Expect the gamb00ler types in the game to play every hand, chase any draw and any piece of the flop all the way, and for these guys to suck out just enough to give you an ulcer.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

10/20 holdem/omaha is the biggest game my local casino spreads - limit omaha high in the sort of game you describe is a licence to print

play tight pre-flop and only draw to the best

any poker game has swings but limit omaha high isnt a swingy poker game

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

Exactly as Stripsqueez said. Limit Omaha is very profitable vs. loose opponents.

Play tight preflop, playing hands that can develop into various nut draws. If an eight - ten out nut draw develops on the flop, call down against 2-3 opponents, raise for value against 4 or more opponents, consider folding if heads-up or the pot is too small. Raise hard for 10+ outs vs 3+ opponents. Be ready to fold if a better nut appears. Abandon most pairs if a set does not develop on the flop.

Playing top two pair is a bit more tricky on the flop. You can generally raise for value on a ragged board, but abandon ship vs. a three flush or obvious straight if you aren't getting odds to draw and fill up.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

O8 is quickly becoming my new best friend fo sho.


ppl are bad.. omfg short-handed O8 is gold.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

I have a lot of experience playing 15-30 and 25-50 Limit Omaha Hi at Harrahs in New Orleans. I think the advice of most of the above posters is dead-on.

Most games I have played in are very passive pre-flop, so you can play pretty much any hand with a suited ace b/c there will usually be 6 or 7 players seeing the flop for one bet. Fold hands like 9987, T987, or 8765 DS or not. In general, sets are losers at the river. If you flop the nut flush draw and the board pairs on the turn with 4 or more players still in, dump it. Someone has the nuts 90% of the time. Fast play top sets with a big flush draw or gut shot (you have the best hand + either the best draw or blockers to someone drawing to the nuts).

But most importantly, your win rate will be determined at the river. Learn to throw away your J-high flush that happened to hit while you were playing top set.

In closing I have one word of advice: VARIANCE. Expect huge swings.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

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Top set may not be a big hand in this game, it may just be a draw.

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Even if you consider top set to be "just a draw" it is still a massive hand. If several players are putting bets in on the flop you have a huge equity edge with top set. Even with the nut flush draw you can bet and raise there for value if you are confident of being called in several spots.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

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Top set may not be a big hand in this game, it may just be a draw.

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Even if you consider top set to be "just a draw" it is still a massive hand. If several players are putting bets in on the flop you have a huge equity edge with top set. Even with the nut flush draw you can bet and raise there for value if you are confident of being called in several spots.

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Especially true if you are reading the table well, e.g. you have top set against three flush draws, or you have nut flush draw against top set, 2pr, 2pr. These can be very profitable situations if recognized and managed properly.

In some of these mix games I get to play against the same people for hours, and start reading them pretty well.

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

This is gold.

Given what you've said, I've clearly been making mistakes in my starting hand selection. I have been folding a lot of suited ace hands because they included "danglers", or all 4 cards weren't connected. It appears this is too tight given how many players are seeing the flop in this game, and the value of nut flushes.

I have also been playing hands like the ones you advise against, e.g. 9987 and T987. Is the reason you don't play them simply because straight-making hands do not hit and hold up often enough?

One other question. How fast do you play when you flop a weak nut straight (with no other draws) in a multiway pot? E.g., you have 63 in the blinds on a 2-4-5 two-suited flop, or something similar. Is it better to see if the turn is a safe card before raising?

Re: Limit Omaha Hi - general advice wanted
 

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How fast do you play when you flop a weak nut straight (with no other draws) in a multiway pot? E.g., you have 63 in the blinds on a 2-4-5 two-suited flop, or something similar. Is it better to see if the turn is a safe card before raising?

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Actually, this is a stronger straight. Compare it's straight-dinkers (3s,6s,7s) to having 89 and a 7TJ board (9s, Qs, Ks, As). With your low straight you are drawing to no suit and no board pair. With it, and against opponents who favor high cards, I'd probably jam early. With the high straight, I'd take a card off and see what happend, but would fold to any pressure.

jmo