Roulette systems - do they work?
 

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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do they work?

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No.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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Just curious to see if anyone has ever found any that actually brings a profit constantly, i.e. in the long run?

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I have. I bet 34 different number EVERY spin. The key is to leave out the LAST 4 numbers that have been rolled. Very important.

This way I get 35 bets back EVERY spin, but I only have to bet 34. Free money.

Tuco.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

I make about $60/hour 4-tabling roulette wheels with $5 bets using a system I came up with.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

Roulette is unique in being the only casino table game where every available bet has the same EV, even though the odds and payouts change dramatically (from even money to 35:1). At a double zero Roulette table, you are at a disadvantage of a little over 5% for all of your action (single zero table disadvantage is roughly half of this amount). The game is very symmetrical and there is a real beauty in that.

Unfortunately, it is not beatable. Over the long term, your expected loss will be roughly 5% of the total amount that you have wagered (assuming double zero). Your actual results will converge to this expectation as you have more and more wagers.

You do not need to believe me on this. For fun, you can set up a quick little experiment using MS Excel. Use the random number generator and plug your system in as betting logic. Just make sure you include the zero results, as they are the basis for the house advantage. Run a million trials and see if your actual result is very far from the expected result of -5% X total amount wagered. If it is, you should double check your spreadsheet set-up. You can see the results for any proposed betting system using this method.

While your EV (and long-term results) will not be impacted by a betting system, various systems will have different impacts on your short-term results. For example, you could look for the system that will minimize variance (for bonus whoring), or maximize variance (if you want to Gambool).

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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I make about $60/hour 4-tabling roulette wheels with $5 bets using a system I came up with.

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So lets hear it.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

You mean Internet roulette? I've been wondering about the B&M wheels lately ... Guardian story

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

I have come up with the best roulette strategy ever. What you do is. Select the $500 chip. Close your eyes. Randomly click around 10-15 times on the board. Open and push spin. Cash out millions. Repeat

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

Roulette is the most honest of all casino table games. Note that I did not say that it is fair. It is not. However, the house advantage for roulette is obvious to anybody who is not mathematically retarded. If you can not, after looking at a roulette layout and wheel for five minutes, understand why the house has an unbeatable advantage at this game, you are probably fit for a career only in fast food or janitorial service, or possibly teaching liberal arts cousres.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

It's not as easy for many people as it is for many of us to understand that past results don't affect future ones. I know that many people that have a much better job than flipping burguers have no idea that the house has an unbeatable edge (with minor exceptions) at all casino games. People in general just don't think rationally. If they did they wouldn't even need to know the rules of a casino game to know it's unbeatable.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

Mike Caro developed a system a few years ago that nobody has lost any money when using it. I will let you search nerds post a link

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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Mike Caro developed a system a few years ago that nobody has lost any money when using it. I will let you search nerds post a link

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Caro's System

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

So what it is saying the only way to not lose money is to never play? GENIOUS!!!

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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So what it is saying the only way to not lose money is to never play? GENIOUS!!!

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I know, it's like it's -EV or something.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

Roulette is the gayest and most boring of all the sucker casino games out there. I'd rather get killed playing 3 card poker, casino war, or some other -EV game.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

Okay, this system does work:
Let's say you have a million dollar bankroll.

Bet $1 on Black. If you lose, then double the bet to $2. If you lose that, double the bet to $4, etc, and eventually you will win. After you win, reset the bet to $1. You will end up winning a dollar every time you win.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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Okay, this system does work:
Let's say you have a million dollar bankroll.

Bet $1 on Black. If you lose, then double the bet to $2. If you lose that, double the bet to $4, etc, and eventually you will win. After you win, reset the bet to $1. You will end up winning a dollar every time you win.

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http://home.planetcomm.net/ltaylor/p..._post_ever.jpg

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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Okay, this system does work:
Let's say you have a million dollar bankroll.

Bet $1 on Black. If you lose, then double the bet to $2. If you lose that, double the bet to $4, etc, and eventually you will win. After you win, reset the bet to $1. You will end up winning a dollar every time you win.

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OMG WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT!

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

Okay, I'm fond of hyperbole. There are lots good jobs that don't require more than rudimentary math skills. But come on: roulette? Single numbers: 38 slots, 35:1 payout. Even money bets: 18/38 slots win. It ain't rocket science. The math is fairly complex for poker, blackjack and many other card games (I don't consider Three card poker, Let it Ride, Carribean Stud, etc. to be poker. They are carnival games that use poker hands.) The math is pretty easy for craps, but not quite as obvious as it is for roulette. Casino war is pretty simple mathematically, but they do that little bit of misdirection where the dealer takes the chips out of the tray and appears to (but really doesn't) match your extra bet when you go to war. I confess, I played Casino War once and it took me about half an hour before I spotted the con. Don't get me wrong: I knew there had to be a house edge somewhere, but it took me awhile to figure it out. But it mystifies me how anybody who is beyond counting on their fingers can fail see the house edge in roulette.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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Okay, this system does work:
Let's say you have a million dollar bankroll.

Bet $1 on Black. If you lose, then double the bet to $2. If you lose that, double the bet to $4, etc, and eventually you will win. After you win, reset the bet to $1. You will end up winning a dollar every time you win.

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It would work if they didn't have caps on how much you could bet. But the odds of losing enough hands in a row outweigh how much your risking to win $1.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

No, a Martingale wouldn't really work with no betting limit. The bigger your bankroll, the lower your proabability of hitting a bad enough streak to bust you. But the probability of busting never reaches zero and it's still -EV, no matter how big your bankroll. besides, do you really want to risk $1,000,000,000 or so for a net profit of $1?

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

So you are saying I should triple my bet after a loss right?

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

"Roulette is unique in being the only casino table game where every available bet has the same EV, even though the odds and payouts change dramatically (from even money to 35:1)."

This is simply wrong. For instance, single numbers pay 35:1, if you split 2 number it pays 17:1.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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You mean Internet roulette? I've been wondering about the B&M wheels lately ... Guardian story

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Just make sure you play in the UK. Most (Actually all, I believe) US states with casino gambling have laws against using "devices" to predict outcomes. In Nevade, IIRC, it is a felony. I once received an email from a Colorado Gaming Commission official who claimed that even using ones chips to keep track of the count in Blackjack would be a violation of the "device" law. He told me that using anything other than my brain to keep track of the count in blackjack would be illegal. I don't know if there's any case law to back this up, but I would be very careful.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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So you are saying I should triple my bet after a loss right?

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Why limit your profit like that? Multiply it by 100.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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You mean Internet roulette? I've been wondering about the B&M wheels lately ... Guardian story

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Just make sure you play in the UK. Most (Actually all, I believe) US states with casino gambling have laws against using "devices" to predict outcomes. In Nevade, IIRC, it is a felony. I once received an email from a Colorado Gaming Commission official who claimed that even using ones chips to keep track of the count in Blackjack would be a violation of the "device" law. He told me that using anything other than my brain to keep track of the count in blackjack would be illegal. I don't know if there's any case law to back this up, but I would be very careful.

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that's interesting that he would tell you that using your chips to keep track of the BJ count would constitute a felony.

I thought the law was perhaps 'electronic devices' or something. I never heard of the whole 'can only be your brain' thing.

I was counting last night actually and I always use my foot to keep a side-count of the aces.

If it's my body would that count?
Kind of the same as counting on one's fingers.


Also regarding the whole bit about not being allowed to keep track...players are allowed to mark down the results in baccarat hands and can also mark down the results at roulette if they like (although now most roulette wheels have a big board that does this for you).

Ignoring for the moment that these methods on bacarrat and roulette won't help you win at all whereas counting at BJ can help you win...I wonder if they are really able to make a distinction legally.

Lets say I'm a really bad counter (there are lots of those out there too) or maybe my system is terrible and I'm convinvced that I should double-down every 3rd hand no matter what I have.
If I use my chips to keep track of the number of hands played to employ such an terrible strategy then does it suddenly become a felony?

What if I can't add my cards of 8 and 4 in my head and I use my stack of chips to count it out and see what the total is?? Is this a felony as opposed to adding 8 and 4 on my fingers?


I'm just not convinved (yet) that this guy's interpretation that it would really be a felony is correct.
And I also suspect such laws about devices, etc would vary from state to state anyway.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

MicroBob, there are RULES that are specific to blackjack, as well as RULES specific to every other casino game. There has to be - obviously - because the games are played differently (I know this sounds insultingly obvious, but no insult intended).

In the blackjack RULES there is a section saying "No devices" (and specifying what that means, eg. "no electrical, electronic, mechanical or other device that can be used to record, transmit, store, process or otherwise ..."). Different jurisdictions have different wordings. Some more restrictive than others.

The LAW about casino gambling states that it is illegal to break the RULES of any game.

That's how using pen and paper is illegal at BJ, but not at roulette or baccaret (which have no such clause within their game RULES).

Several counters have been accused of cheating for using chips to keep the count (I have no links, sorry). Usually because they've pissed off the casino for other reasons (any counter needing to use chips to keep a count is not likely to be a +EV player). To my knowledge NONE of these have ended with the counter being found guilty of breaking the law. Doesn't stop the casinos using it as a pretext though, of course.

Amusingly I know of one case where a judge ruled that a pencil (note: not a pen, has to be old fashioned pencil) and paper were not a mechanical device, and he found the counter not guilty. Most jurisdictions have added, "or other" to the list of proscribed device types. Obviously as a catchall.

Regarding your "every 3rd hand" example of chip tracking. It is illegal to use chips to track ANYTHING to do with a BJ game, regardless whether the aspect you are trasking is +EV or not. I have wondered in the past whether using chips to track your session bankroll (which is what chips ARE) could be deemed illegal. As the size of your bankroll has a significant effect on your odds of winning (eg. more $ takes you further away from gamblers' ruin).

I cannot imagine any casino trying to argue in court that you should not be allowed to add up the value of your own chips, but theoretically the argument could be made.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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"Roulette is unique in being the only casino table game where every available bet has the same EV, even though the odds and payouts change dramatically (from even money to 35:1)."

This is simply wrong. For instance, single numbers pay 35:1, if you split 2 number it pays 17:1.

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um

same ev

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

I was being satirical. I found it funny that he made such a quality post in such a silly thread. My bad.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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I was being satirical. I found it funny that he made such a quality post in such a silly thread. My bad.

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sorry. It was late and my sarcasm meter must have been turned off. my bad

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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Okay, I'm fond of hyperbole. There are lots good jobs that don't require more than rudimentary math skills. But come on: roulette? Single numbers: 38 slots, 35:1 payout. Even money bets: 18/38 slots win. It ain't rocket science. The math is fairly complex for poker, blackjack and many other card games (I don't consider Three card poker, Let it Ride, Carribean Stud, etc. to be poker. They are carnival games that use poker hands.) The math is pretty easy for craps, but not quite as obvious as it is for roulette. Casino war is pretty simple mathematically, but they do that little bit of misdirection where the dealer takes the chips out of the tray and appears to (but really doesn't) match your extra bet when you go to war. I confess, I played Casino War once and it took me about half an hour before I spotted the con. Don't get me wrong: I knew there had to be a house edge somewhere, but it took me awhile to figure it out. But it mystifies me how anybody who is beyond counting on their fingers can fail see the house edge in roulette.

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The point is that people don't try to calculate EV or house edge when playing a casino game. Yes, the math is very simple and probably most of them would be able to figure it out, but they don't approach the problem like that. They just see that sometimes they win and sometimes they lose so they think "hey, I just need to get lucky and I'll win". It's not obvious for those people that after a certain number of bets your standard deviation will decrease in relation to your negative EV and you'll certainly be a loser in the long run.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

yeah, that all makes sense. Interesting stuff and the pencil vs. pen and other stuff.

Although I disagree with your idea that a counter who uses chips would not be a +EV player.

I still use my foot for the side-count of aces. And I've used chips or other things (straw in drink, etc) before to keep 3 or even 4 different side-counts before.

Now i don't worry about it as much and just have fun and drink and keep the count and try to play even EV or so.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

I have used my fingers to side-count aces in a single deck game (I never bothered with side counts in multi-deck games). This may have been illegal, but I always used one hand kept on top of my thigh, under the table and out of site of dealer, pit posses and cameras.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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Roulette is the gayest and most boring of all the sucker casino games out there. I'd rather get killed playing 3 card poker, casino war, or some other -EV game.

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Roulette is the only casino game I actually enjoy playing. I sit there, get drunk out of my mind throw chips on random numbers and get excited when my ball hits one of them. Doesnt matter how drunk you get you arent going to lose anymore money than the sober guy next to you who has some retarded system. I also dont have to wait for my turn, or put up with retarded people trying to figure out "what play" to make or anyof that stuff.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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Okay, this system does work:
Let's say you have a million dollar bankroll.

Bet $1 on Black. If you lose, then double the bet to $2. If you lose that, double the bet to $4, etc, and eventually you will win. After you win, reset the bet to $1. You will end up winning a dollar every time you win.

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It would work if they didn't have caps on how much you could bet. But the odds of losing enough hands in a row outweigh how much your risking to win $1.

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Even without a cap it wouldn't be +EV.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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No, a Martingale wouldn't really work with no betting limit. The bigger your bankroll, the lower your proabability of hitting a bad enough streak to bust you. But the probability of busting never reaches zero and it's still -EV, no matter how big your bankroll.

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If your bankroll were literally infinite (as opposed to arbitrarily large but still finite), the probability of busting would be zero. But if your bankroll were literally infinite, you still couldn't profit by using the Martingale system because your bet sizes would be finite, and infinity plus any finite number is still just infinity.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

Additionally, it would be extremely difficult to push an infinite number of chips onto the table, much less fit in on one of those little squares..

And all that effort to win back the initial $1 would be especially silly when you already have an infinite amount of money in the first place.
If you have an infinite amount of money, why would you need any more than that?


I'm kind of with alobar on roulette though because it's such a stupid game that it actually becomes fun.

It's about the only game that my GF enjoys playing so she studies the previous numbers on the board and determines whether red or black is 'due' with her super-psychic powers and I go with it.

She knows it's dumb and doesn't REALLY believe she can figure it out.
But we have fun and we actually win more often than we lose oddly enough.

If she hits a bad streak then I suggest she can get back in the whole 'feel' of the roulette-groove with more alcohol (usually works).

I also like really focusing on the wheel to try to use mind-control to get the ball to fall on 29. This works much better with odd eyebrow contortions and/or strange sound-effects.

Sometimes tends to annoy some of the other players if they are taking the whole roulette thing WAY too seriously.
But if they're actually taking roulette seriously then I reason that they deserve to be annoyed.

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

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Additionally, it would be extremely difficult to push an infinite number of chips onto the table, much less fit in on one of those little squares..

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That is a very often over looked point when examing the martingale system

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

why was the OP's post deleted?

Re: Roulette systems - do they work?
 

I actually feel much the same about craps. And I'm usually losing less than the (bigger)suckers becuase I pretty much stick to minimum pass/come bets and odds while lots of folks are betting hardways, one roll bets and such junk.