how beatable
 

playing very well against weak competition. 3-6 limit holdem
10% rake $5 max
1 dollar jackpot every pot above 20 dollars
tipping 1 dollar on every decent win

???

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
playing very well against weak competition. 3-6 limit holdem
10% rake $5 max
1 dollar jackpot every pot above 20 dollars
tipping 1 dollar on every decent win

???

[/ QUOTE ]

losing 2 BB on every pot over $40 sucks.

were you high when you registered for the forum?

Re: how beatable
 

?

Re: how beatable
 

I'm aware it sucks, I'm wondering what i could expect to make longterm if i play very well

Re: how beatable
 

It's 1BB... and it's a lot. How beatable? I'd still say quite.

Re: how beatable
 

How about this one, beatable?:

1/2 NL $80 capped-donkfest

10% to $8 + $5 time charge per hour. No tipping.

Re: how beatable
 

Impossible.

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's 1BB... and it's a lot. How beatable? I'd still say quite.

[/ QUOTE ] 5max on hands for pots over 40... plus 1 jackpot... 5+1=6 6/3=2 yep definately two big blinds, and thats not to mention tipping

Re: how beatable
 

so anyone have an estimate for profit per 100 hands????

Re: how beatable
 

BB is big bets.

Re: how beatable
 

so whats the big blind abbreviation... also why are you posting multiple times in this forum if you don't have/ don't feel like giving an answer

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
How beatable? I'd still say quite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
so whats the big blind abbreviation... also why are you posting multiple times in this forum if you don't have/ don't feel like giving an answer

[/ QUOTE ]

He actually provided several answers. One of his answers was to a question you hadn't realize you had asked.

Why so hostile?

Re: how beatable
 

BB in a limit game means "big bet", in this case $6. I don't really think there is a abbreviations for "big blind" in this context, because win rates are almost always expressed in fractions of "big bets", not "big blinds".

Whether this game is beatable or not depends entirely on the skill of your competition. If the competition is horrible, then it is probably beatable for something like 1 BB/hour, assuming you never win the jackpot.

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
playing very well against weak competition. 3-6 limit holdem
10% rake $5 max
1 dollar jackpot every pot above 20 dollars
tipping 1 dollar on every decent win

???

[/ QUOTE ]

Poor conditions, but you still should average $6 - $9 an hour, provided your opponents are weak. If you have no choice about the rake you face, try playing where there are auto shufflers or at least better quality dealers.

Re: how beatable
 

Ok, I used to play in a similar structure only without the BBJ drop. 3/6 LHE, 10 handed, 10% up to $5 rake. I was averaging around $14 / hour, over a sample of eight months playing between 20-25 hours a week. A good idea for you would be to ask for a "chop" when you tip and only tip 50cents / pot that win, avoid tipping on every pot that you win (no need to tip on blind steals or pots that only go 1 bet on the flop), and also if you can't get a "chop" on your tips, maybe just tip a dollar every 2-3 pots you win, instead of every pot.

The game still is beatable even with that structure, but try and move up to a 6/12 or a 5/10 game (whatever, is next at your cardroom) as soon as you can to maximize your profits, as the competition isn't really any better in my experience.

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's 1BB... and it's a lot. How beatable? I'd still say quite.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5max on hands for pots over 40... plus 1 jackpot... 5+1=6 6/3=2 yep definately two big blinds, and thats not to mention tipping

[/ QUOTE ]

The donkeys pay the rake. Loose players play more hands so they pay more of the rake.

Re: how beatable
 

The answer is:





It depends. There's a lot of money coming out of that game. If the players are not completely clueless, it's probably not beatable. OTOH, in a 3/6 B&M game, you may well be the only player who has a clue. If it is a typical 7 to the flop, 4 to the river, loose passive fish pond, you can probably make a little money from it. But don't quit your day job.

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is:





It depends. There's a lot of money coming out of that game. If the players are not completely clueless, it's probably not beatable. OTOH, in a 3/6 B&M game, you may well be the only player who has a clue. If it is a typical 7 to the flop, 4 to the river, loose passive fish pond, you can probably make a little money from it. But don't quit your day job.

[/ QUOTE ]
Im a student in new orleans and i play at harahs. Just lookin to make a little cash on nights that i don't go out with my friends. 0-2 players "have a clue". THe only games offered are 3-6 and 15-30 sometimes (I cant handle a downswing tho) THey also have a split omaha-holdem 4-8 game... but i do not really know how to play omaha. I know all the rules but LITERALLY the only strategy I know is to play your suited aces. (pathetic i know) Anyway if i'm still playing excellent holdem and i just play INCREDIBALLY TIGHT omaha would this be more profitable.

Re: how beatable
 

same rake applys..

Re: how beatable
 

just realized i sometimes take a break for an orbit, i can always do it on the omaha orbit correct?

Re: how beatable
 

If you're going to play low limit poker at Harrah's NO, you must learn Omaha. Get yourself a book, read it once, and start crushing the 4/8 Omaha. My experience (pre-Katrina) with the old 1-4-8-8 half and half game was that the holdem was awful since it was essentially 2-3 half and half players and 7-8 Omaha players putting up with the holdem. Of course, the blinds were 1 & 2 in 1-4-8-8, so it was cheap to pass on the holdem.

To answer your actual question, you can skip the Omaha but will have to post the blinds unless you are in the 2 seat. Game changes on the 10 seat. Current game is structured 4/8 with 2 & 4 blinds.

Re: how beatable
 

LOL!

The high remark was due to u joining on 4/20...

420 is often used to signify that you indulge or enjoy the wacky tobacky.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/420_%28cannabis_culture%29

Re: how beatable
 

If the players are half-decent, or even just a little tight, the game is going to be very hard to beat. suggestions about stealing blinds or "one bet on the flop" might happen in such a game, but those aren't the beatable games with this rake.

If the players are horrible in the loose-passive-chasing sense, you'll be paying max rake on nearly every pot you win. Let's assume 12BB/100 as a guess for a very good player's winrate before rake, and do some math:
100 hands is about 3 hours, so divide by three for hourly: 4BB=$24. It's 10-handed, so winning 7-8% of hands would be reasonable to assume-- that's 2.5 hands per hour. You only pay rake/tip when you win, but you're paying $7/win. Let's say $6.50, since some pots won't make it to $50 or you'll not like the dealer and not tip once in a while. Thus, you'll pay $16/hr in rake and tips. That leaves $8/hr as a best-case scenario.

note that dropping winrate to 9BB/100 changes the after-rake winrate to $2/hr. Another way to put it is the rake is 7.5 BB/100 in your game, so you need to win at more than this rate to make anything. If you can beat 1/2 full online, I claim you can beat the rake at this game, but it's hard to say you expect to make 12BB/100 pre-rake-- that's near-expert skill.

Re: how beatable
 

Good place to ask this:

5/10, I play average-to-well.

5% up to $10 cap rake.

Average competition is 6 donkeys, 2 VERY weak tights, and 1 other solid player. This would be a conservative estimate aswell.

Average pot is ~$100.

Beatable? I tentatively say yes, but would like some expert confirmation.

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the players are half-decent, or even just a little tight

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-6 limit holdem in a casino

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: how beatable
 

Neither game mentioned in this thread is beatable.

-DeathDonkey

Re: how beatable
 

the 3-6 game is beatable and an analysis o around 8 dollars an hour seems right mathmatecially and has been proven thus ar in my small sample size. (played about 20 hours up about 200)
I created another post... how much money do i need to play 15/30 without having to worry about going broke. (assume i average only .5BB after rake per hundred hands) A downswing could be pretty bad if i'm such a slight winning player. How many big bets should i start with.

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
the 3-6 game is beatable and an analysis o around 8 dollars an hour seems right mathmatecially and has been proven thus ar in my small sample size. (played about 20 hours up about 200)
I created another post... how much money do i need to play 15/30 without having to worry about going broke. (assume i average only .5BB after rake per hundred hands) A downswing could be pretty bad if i'm such a slight winning player. How many big bets should i start with.

[/ QUOTE ]
20 hrs is hardly "proven", but you can safely assume you're not running bad making $200 in that time frame. You might be able to keep it up, but not too likely.

The second question-- 0.5 BB/100 is $15 per 3 hrs, or $5/hr if you're talking live. Why play that high for $5/hr? Also, with that small a winrate, you'd need like 500BB to be safe if it were your only game, possibly more. I don't think you're going to go for $5/hr with a $15K bankroll, so don't get ideas about making that your main game, unless profit isn't your goal.
I think somewhere above you mentioned there was no game in between-- if this is the case, I suggest playing online quite a bit to get your game in top shape, then taking some shots at the 15. If you're getting your 0.5 BB/100 number from a single-digit number of sessions, you don't have any grasp of variance, and REALLY should play online to get a taste. Google "poker bankroll calculator" for more detail; use 16BB/100 as variance if you have no idea what to put (this can vary quite a bit based on style, so 16 isn't a definitive number-- try 14/18/20 for a range of bankroll needs depending on how aggro your games are).
-curtis

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good place to ask this:

5/10, I play average-to-well.

5% up to $10 cap rake.

Average competition is 6 donkeys, 2 VERY weak tights, and 1 other solid player. This would be a conservative estimate aswell.

Average pot is ~$100.

Beatable? I tentatively say yes, but would like some expert confirmation.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, the rake is essentially uncapped, so avg pot determines average rake. If the pot avg's $100, rake is around $5/hand. You mention no jackpot drop, and tipping $1/hand is a reasonable assumption-- $6/hand in costs. At a typically soft 5/10 game, we can use similar numbers to above- a good but not expert player could make 8BB/100 before rake. The rake in this case is under 5 BB/100, leaving you 1 BB/hr ($10) as potential profit. This game is much easier to beat, since you only need 5 BB/100 pre-rake to be a breakeven player. Note that is avg pot is $120, you pay $7/hand, and winrate may not go up (the extra aggression can become hard to deal with, and isn't necessarily all dead money); this could lead to winrate dropping to $3/hr range.

When every bet that goes in is raked, super-thin value bets lose their value, because the house takes 5% of both the bet and the call-- you bet $10 to win $19. This can make lots of what would be good decisions online -EV in your game.

If you play online, I suggest you use 25/50 cent full ring as a gauge for typical 6/12 or under live games. I play the 25 stakes to get practice extracting the most out of that level of player, and also use my winrates (smallish sample, 12k hands) to guide my calculations above. I believe 25-50 is beatable for 9BB/100 before rake, while the game is generally tighter than my local 4/8; this is where I get my estimates for 9-12BB/100 for 4/8 and lower. Your 5/10 game sounds like my usual conditions.
-Curtis

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
the 3-6 game is beatable and an analysis o around 8 dollars an hour seems right mathmatecially and has been proven thus ar in my small sample size. (played about 20 hours up about 200)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what 600-800 hands? That's basically meaningless. You have to play about 200K to have any decent idea of your win rate. i.e. about + or - 1 BB/100.

[ QUOTE ]
I created another post... how much money do i need to play 15/30 without having to worry about going broke. (assume i average only .5BB after rake per hundred hands) A downswing could be pretty bad if i'm such a slight winning player. How many big bets should i start with.

[/ QUOTE ]

1000 or about 30K if you can only beat the game for that much and you’re looking to live off the money you make, and the swings with that small a win rate are going to be sick. From what I've heard about 15/30 live games though, decent play should net you more then that. Of course if you’re not really that worried about going broke, you could start with a tenth of that. You’ll go broke some of the time, but most of the time you’ll build it in to a good roll.

Re: how beatable
 

Somebody's from Sydney [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

the game plays much larger than 1/2 imho and on fri/sat it's donktastic. Even with alcohol and absolutely stupid calls I can usually end up ahead. There's also some females at the table which is a big change.

How about this 4/8 game?
 

4/8
10% rake, max $3 (plus $1 jackpot)
Typical 5-6 players to the flop

Would a solid Miller SSH player be a favorite to beat the rake in this game? If so, what type of winrate would be reasonable?

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you play online, I suggest you use 25/50 cent full ring as a gauge for typical 6/12 or under live games. I play the 25 stakes to get practice extracting the most out of that level of player, and also use my winrates (smallish sample, 12k hands) to guide my calculations above. I believe 25-50 is beatable for 9BB/100 before rake, while the game is generally tighter than my local 4/8; this is where I get my estimates for 9-12BB/100 for 4/8 and lower. Your 5/10 game sounds like my usual conditions.
-Curtis

[/ QUOTE ]

9bb/100, you must be one of the greatest poker players of all time.

Re: How about this 4/8 game?
 

[ QUOTE ]
4/8
10% rake, max $3 (plus $1 jackpot)
Typical 5-6 players to the flop

Would a solid Miller SSH player be a favorite to beat the rake in this game? If so, what type of winrate would be reasonable?

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely, that is the kind of game SSH is written for. 1-1.5bb/hr seems reasonable.

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]

9bb/100, you must be one of the greatest poker players of all time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this Yossarian. First you make a sarcastic comment about a 9bb/100 figure. Then in your very next post you state that a 4/8 game can be beaten for 1.5bb/hour.

1.5bb/hour=4.5bb/100 if the dealers are fast. Factor the rake into that and you're looking at right around 9bb/100. Remember that live games in general play much looser then games online. The winrates are substantially higher at these low limits.

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
The second question-- 0.5 BB/100 is $15 per 3 hrs, or $5/hr if you're talking live. Why play that high for $5/hr?

[/ QUOTE ]

VBCurtis - how many hands/hr did you use to calculate that?

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I believe 25-50 is beatable for 9BB/100 before rake, while the game is generally tighter than my local 4/8; this is where I get my estimates for 9-12BB/100 for 4/8 and lower. Your 5/10 game sounds like my usual conditions.
-Curtis

[/ QUOTE ]

9bb/100, you must be one of the greatest poker players of all time.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the PT main screen, add the total rake paid to your profit, and recompute your winrate before rake . At micro stakes online, some sites have a 4BB/100 rake, and beating a 25-cent limit game for 5BB/100 is totally feasible-- we're not talking 1/2 here. Presto! 9BB/100.

You don't have to accept my gross (before rake) winrate estimates, either-- I detailed my calculation method, so you can plug in numbers that suit your game, if you wish.

I suggest you take your 1-1.5 BB/hr guess for the other poster's 4/8 and figure out what BB/100 that corresponds to before rake. If you include a $1 tip per fully raked pot, it's quite close to 9BB/100 for 1.5 BB/hr.

Which is it, then? Is 9BB/100 gross impossible, making 1.5BB/hr after rake impossible?

Re: how beatable
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The second question-- 0.5 BB/100 is $15 per 3 hrs, or $5/hr if you're talking live. Why play that high for $5/hr?

[/ QUOTE ]

VBCurtis - how many hands/hr did you use to calculate that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard low-limit live game assumption for simplicity is 3 hours to play 100 hands, 33 hands/hour. As the games get higher, more hands without flops happen, and 40 hands/hr is probably more accurate, which would change the above winrate to $6/hr.

Autoshufflers and experienced players mean 40/hr can happen at 4/8 or 6/12, too, but almost never at the lowest limit a room spreads-- just realizing the action is on them is an acquired skill for beginning cardroom players.
-Curtis

Re: How about this 4/8 game?
 

[ QUOTE ]
4/8
10% rake, max $3 (plus $1 jackpot)
Typical 5-6 players to the flop

Would a solid Miller SSH player be a favorite to beat the rake in this game? If so, what type of winrate would be reasonable?

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely! This is a typical Vegas vigorish, and more beatable than SoCal rooms (where rake is $3+1 on any flop, pot size be damned).

Some calculations, because I like them:
Assume you win 8 pots per 100, paying 3.50 avg rake and a dollar tip; further, suppose you can pull 8BB/100 before rake from the game. 8BB=$64, less $36 in rake&tips, and profit comes out $28/100 hands. This would be $9/hr if the dealer is on the slow side, or as high as $11/hr at an attentive table (33 hands/hr slow, 40 hands/hr fast)

8BB/100 before rake is lower than expert play, but possible using Miller's style. Bump that to 10BB/100, and winrate range changes to $17-20/hr. I think Miller mentions somewhere in SSHE that 2 BB/hr at 4/8 or 6/12 can happen-- this is why. 10BB/100 gross is possible at REALLY soft games, the kind where there is not a player at the table you have respect for.
-Curtis