WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

Hero has 25,000
MP1 has 30,000
BB has 16,000

Table has been obnoxiously tight. Most hands get folded to the CO. Most raised hands get folded to the pfr. MP1 has been playing as tight as everyone else.

Hero has Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in LMP

Blinds are 300/600 50 ante.

Preflop:
MP1 raises to 1600 (standard), one fold,
Hero calls...?
BB calls

Flop (5600) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB checks
MP1 bets 4000
Hero...?

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

I would put in a re-raise. Even with the tight table, that looks to me like a continuation bet as much as anything. I think it is at least an easy call, but I would reraise to put some pressure on him.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

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I would put in a re-raise. Even with the tight table, that looks to me like a continuation bet as much as anything. I think it is at least an easy call, but I would reraise to put some pressure on him.

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I was thinking that with 9,600 in the pot taking it down now would mean a lot to me at this stage in the tournament so I could not really withstand a K or A on the turn.

I thought about raising 8k more to 12,000 (leaving me with 9,000 behind) but I felt that doing so would be turning my QQ into 72o because if he called I would not know what to do against a turn bet and if he 3-bet all in I would be in a tough position but would feel pot committed to call. I also considered pushing all in.

Thoughts?

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

PS... Congrats Strassa!

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

Reraise preflop

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

Risky spot for a flatcall. Would repop sometimes pre, generally.

Now that you got the flop you want, reraise. Great flop. If you think he has a pretty tight range, so this is 99+, KQs+, AQo+ from MP1, maybe a bit wider. ~10k should do it. Makes the turn tricky to play if he coldcalls, but you might be able to peel and get a showdown skipping a round of betting.

If he three-bet shoves, well. judgment call.

Question is if you like your QQ enough to felt with it. Reraising will tell you that, and let you decide on flop instead of cold-calling bigger bets and a possible AI on river. Don't give him a chance to peel or draw cheaply.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

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Reraise preflop

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If you re-raise to about 4000 pre flop, you make it a lot easier for yourself. If he re-raises you can evaluate again, if he calls, you know you are ahead on a non A/K flop.

As played I would raise to 10k on this flop, looking to get all in.

Keep in mind that I have no experience from tourneys with such a high buy-in like this. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

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Reraise preflop

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if he calls, you know you are ahead on a non A/K flop.



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I don't think this is reasonable, he could easily have KK+ here if he calls. KK may fold out worse hands by pushing and AA may have interest in trapping.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

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[ QUOTE ]
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Reraise preflop

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if he calls, you know you are ahead on a non A/K flop.



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I don't think this is reasonable, he could easily have KK+ here if he calls. KK may fold out worse hands by pushing and AA may have interest in trapping.

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People really trap with AA/KK in these torunies? Sounds real strange to me, but I wouldn't know.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

re-raise PF
re-raise on the flop

There is too little information to put his range on KK+, re-raising PF would give you a little more info. If he hit his set or has KK+ I'm probably going broke here. I would re-raise to about 10k and call a push.

Re-raising PF lets this hand play out a little easier.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

Fiks? <squints> Heh.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

I don't think that a reraise pf necessarily rules out AA/KK.

To be honest, I was in a chip position where I was willing to happily fold to a flop bet if an A or K flopped and decided that adding 3k to my stack with a pfr was not worth substantial here. Because of my chip position I wanted to try to take down a more substantial pot here with a good flop or lose the minimum and go on to the next hand.

I hit my good flop. I was still behind 88 (slightly discounted,) TT, KK, AA (he is not raising UTG with 22 here) but I wanted to take it down here so a raise was in order... Is this a push or a raise of 8k and reevaluate... or am I way off in my reasoning here?

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

By calling PF we gave MP1 no reason to put us on a Big Hand.

From his point of view all he has to do is push you out of the way now to collect the pot. His bet sizes seems to indicate that he does not want to continue the hand.

It's really all instinct from here...smooth calling here is just cold blooded and ruthless. You know what it feels like to try to push someone off a hand and they're still sneaking behind you like a ninja, right? If we have him on A or K and turn is a blank, he's going to have to check and give it up.

But, the more reasonable course of action is to fire $8-12K back at him, good chance he's laying it down here.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!!!!!! IT GOES BET, RAISE, RE-RAISE. THERE HAS BEEN NO RAISE ON THE TURN. YOU CAN'T RE-RAISE AS MUCH AS YOU MAY WANT TO.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

ok, as for the hand, I'm raising PF for the simple reason that the PFR didn't raise enough. 1600 at the 3/6 level allows for others to easily CC behind you, not to mention offering the blinds a great price if you CC. It is perfectly fine to call PF, but in this situation, being in MP and all, let's go ahead and re-raise this.

OK, we didn't. We CCed. fine. Flop is low, PFR bets a standard amount. I don't like just calling as it allows BB to peel with a bunch of hands that may include str8 draws, aces and kings. I like a raise. How much? Well the stack sizes make this interesting. we have about 23k in our stack. I don't like putting out half my stack on this bet. 12k here, and now the pot is like 30k and we've got 11k on the turn. A push is a little awkward too. 23k to pick up 9.5K? It ain't terrible, but you'll probably just get a fold. Isn't bad though, cuz you might get a call from any ten. How about raising to 9k? If neither player has nothing, this bet will take down the pot. It also gives your opponents a chance to think "he's bluffing. I can take this from him if I push."

You are going broke here, of course.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

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His bet sizes seems to indicate that he does not want to continue the hand.

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um.... what? just what about his bet sizes indicate this to you? I want to know, because I want to know how to communicate with fish in the future.
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It's really all instinct from here...smooth calling here is just cold blooded and ruthless. You know what it feels like to try to push someone off a hand and they're still sneaking behind you like a ninja, right? If we have him on A or K and turn is a blank, he's going to have to check and give it up.

[/ QUOTE ] WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? what is cold-blooded and rutheless about just calling? So you just call here and you are a ninja??? What is he "giving up"??? So, you're convinced that he is not going to bet any turn if he doesn't have a pair.... so you want to "be a ninja" and just call here??? Allowing him to bet your hand for you is a viable option, but you seem convinced that he is not going to do this... but you want to "be the ninja" anyway?
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But, the more reasonable course of action is to fire $8-12K back at him, good chance he's laying it down here.

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LAYING WHAT DOWN??? Now we're bluffing here to get him to lay down AA/KK????

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

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I would put in a re-raise. Even with the tight table, that looks to me like a continuation bet as much as anything. I think it is at least an easy call, but I would reraise to put some pressure on him.

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oh, ok, so you're not thinking about folding to his flop bet???? interesting. Good luck with "re-raising".

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

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Question is if you like your QQ enough to felt with it. Reraising will tell you that, and let you decide on flop instead of cold-calling bigger bets and a possible AI on river. Don't give him a chance to peel or draw cheaply.

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Oh, so we're going to think about folding our overpair after putting in 60% of our stack in and got the 2nd best flop we wanted.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His bet sizes seems to indicate that he does not want to continue the hand.

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um.... what? just what about his bet sizes indicate this to you? I want to know, because I want to know how to communicate with fish in the future.
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Why bet almost Pot Size if you have AA/KK and are looking for a call?

It's really all instinct from here...smooth calling here is just cold blooded and ruthless. You know what it feels like to try to push someone off a hand and they're still sneaking behind you like a ninja, right? If we have him on A or K and turn is a blank, he's going to have to check and give it up.

[/ QUOTE ] WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? what is cold-blooded and rutheless about just calling? So you just call here and you are a ninja??? What is he "giving up"??? So, you're convinced that he is not going to bet any turn if he doesn't have a pair.... so you want to "be a ninja" and just call here??? Allowing him to bet your hand for you is a viable option, but you seem convinced that he is not going to do this... but you want to "be the ninja" anyway?
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But, the more reasonable course of action is to fire $8-12K back at him, good chance he's laying it down here.

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LAYING WHAT DOWN??? Now we're bluffing here to get him to lay down AA/KK????

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I must have missed the part of the thread where he does a Jamie Gold and tell us, "I have AA and a sick parent so you'd better fold" I'll read closer next time.

I based my analysis on the fact that we showed no strength PF and it looks like we're getting bet off the hand.

Also, you might want to switch to decaf and stop the personal insults.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

I don't play at these buy ins, so maybe I'm full of crap. If I were to take a stab at this hand, it would look something like this:

PF - Seems like you'd want to RR PF. MP1 makes the 2.6 bb raise, your call just invites a lot more people into the pot (it would be nice to see all the remaining stack sizes). Cold call isn't horrendous but doesn't build the pot when we're crushing villian's range or shut out a lot of callers with speculative hands behind.

Flop -My god that's a great flop. Villian leads straight out. Would he do this with the nuts (TT/88?). Seems unlikely. Would he do this with AA/KK? It's seems as likely as checking, as there's only you left to bet it for him. And I think he c-bets anything else he raised with after the BB check. As for your action, there's such a small chance the A or K will come on the turn (17%), the pot will be fairly large on the turn if we call, and we have position on both villians.

We've got an overpair on a fairly weak board. We're crushing both villain's ranges. If we think that one of them will not lead on the turn if we call, then I like the smaller raise trying to induce a bluff push.

If one of them is likely to bet the hand, then I think calling the flop is a much better play. If neither bite on a brick turn (non A/K), then I think you want to fire about the pot out there to make it look like a steal in position and induce a push.

Pushing the flop seems pretty horrible, as only AA/KK/TT/88 (maybe BB's T8s/22) calls here (though you mostly pick up the pot).

I think this is a hand where if you're willing to take a little risk, you have the potential to double up or better.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

CDC,

This stuff only works if you're me. Also, for future reference, you should throw in a 'lol donkaments' somewhere in there.

Everyone who is not CDC,

Read all of his posts ITT because right now, this thread sucks.

Frank Zappy,

You in particular have said three different things in this thread that all contradict each other and the thought process you should have. Pay attention to CDC, for he is good at poker and absolutely right.

OP,

CDC is right in that the raise size isn't high enough to just call PF, but OK, you called. This means that when you flop an overpair on a decent looking board you are going broke, so now, you go broke. This does *not* mean that you call this bet and invite him to turn an ace or check/fold JJ when a ten hits.

So what do you raise to? You can shove, maybe even should against many/most people, but it's an overbet. If you overbet a lot, that's OK, go ahead and shove. If you don't, this is a rare situation where you can consider a minraise or a near minraise (a raise to 12K with 9K back is scarier than a shove, IMO, therefore you should never do this). Of course you call a push, and of course you are committed if he just calls on any turn/river cards. If you raise to about 9-10K he is not even getting implied odds to call with AK and will probably fold regardless, so it's fine.

All,

Answers like "reraise to put some pressure on him" or something about ninjas are how it's really easy to spot inexperienced posters, because they come straight out of books and don't make any sense given the exact situation roughly 97% of the time. How are you going to "put some pressure on him" when he has a)missed the flop or b)has an overpair? Think about this one for a while...why would you even want to do that given either of those things?

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

[ QUOTE ]
CDC,

This stuff only works if you're me. Also, for future reference, you should throw in a 'lol donkaments' somewhere in there.

Everyone who is not CDC,

Read all of his posts ITT because right now, this thread sucks.

Frank Zappy,

You in particular have said three different things in this thread that all contradict each other and the thought process you should have. Pay attention to CDC, for he is good at poker and absolutely right.

OP,

CDC is right in that the raise size isn't high enough to just call PF, but OK, you called. This means that when you flop an overpair on a decent looking board you are going broke, so now, you go broke. This does *not* mean that you call this bet and invite him to turn an ace or check/fold JJ when a ten hits.

So what do you raise to? You can shove, maybe even should against many/most people, but it's an overbet. If you overbet a lot, that's OK, go ahead and shove. If you don't, this is a rare situation where you can consider a minraise or a near minraise (a raise to 12K with 9K back is scarier than a shove, IMO, therefore you should never do this). Of course you call a push, and of course you are committed if he just calls on any turn/river cards. If you raise to about 9-10K he is not even getting implied odds to call with AK and will probably fold regardless, so it's fine.

All,

Answers like "reraise to put some pressure on him" or something about ninjas are how it's really easy to spot inexperienced posters, because they come straight out of books and don't make any sense given the exact situation roughly 97% of the time. How are you going to "put some pressure on him" when he has a)missed the flop or b)has an overpair? Think about this one for a while...why would you even want to do that given either of those things?

[/ QUOTE ]

<Chuckling> And............................................... .....................thread over.



Make that ROFLMAO.

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

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<Chuckling> And............................................... .....................thread over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't end my thread [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I agree that raising 8k-10k more doesn't leave the hero much behind in case of a call and ace on the turn so why risk that disaster scenario if a raise of 8-10k more actually looks stronger than a push here?

CDC suggested virtually minraising 5k more up to 9k leaving the hero with 14k behind. I think I like this more than making a real raise to 12k and if he pushes over the top I am calling but what do I do if he calls and then leads an A or K turn all-in? What do I do if he checks an A or K turn?

Isn't there enough in the pot now to put in all of my chips and pray for the best?

-----

As for you definitely saying that I should be raising this preflop is there any creedence to my argument that there is only 3000 in there preflop and raising him will most likely take the pot down therefore not making it worthwhile for me to do so at this stage in the tournament (I have avg stack, my M=30, 400 players left.) Also, raising his bet pf gives me a chance to either be played off of my hand by AKs if I would fold to a push (which I do not think I would do in this situation.) Is a preflop raise for me that clear cut?

Re: WCOOP $1050 NL. QQ in MP
 

I think the only thing that *might* keep me from going broke here is an ace on the turn and he leads. However, I might call anyway. The main reason for the smaller bet is to invite more action either in him calling with overcards, pushing on a stone-cold bluff, or pushing with a hand that he thinks is good (AT,KT,99,JJ, etc). If he checks a A/K turn, I'm still pushing. If he calls our raise, QJ,KJ,KQ, are all viable holdings which have 5-8 outs on an ace turn and we have to call the river if we check the turn, so we might as well bet.

Pushing now, is, as Adanthar suggested, often the best play here, but not because of the a/k turn threat. It is often the best play because players often scoff at such an overbet and well call off their stacks with any ten, and sometimes even any pair. You mentioned not wanting to turn this into 72. Remember that. Don't get nervous just because now there is a flop. Our goal is still to make the most out of our QQ without allowing it to get cracked cheaply (as it might be were we to just call the flop)

Yes, I think it is a must reraise PF. Your position and his small raise make this so. Playing in a manner to prevent yourself from having to make difficult decisions isn't very profitbale. Edges in poker come from making difficult decisons. PF, given our stack size, and the table description, I am likely folding if my raise gets reraised. If that means I allowed AK or JJ to "outplay" me, so be it.

also, adanthar
CDC = Chris Dady Cool
CSC = CardSharpCook
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]