$20/$40 hand
 

At the Borgata. not a very good game, I'm playing it with my friend before going to bed.

Preflop: Unlike what had been going on, 4 players limp to me. I limp with 8d7d, blinds check.

Flop: J 6 5 two hearts. Big blind who usually plays pretty conservatively but is on a huge rush leads. A loose overaggressive guy calls, and I call.

Turn: some blank I forgot. Checked around.

River: 9h. Big blind leads, guy calls, I raise.

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

is this not a standard freecard raise spot?

flush draws will stay honest here, and a lot of limps are only paired up on that flop.

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

8 bets in the pot on the flop, closing the action, unraised pot = raise. You're probably not going to get 3-bet, and can take a very sexy free card.

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

yeah maybe a raise on the flop is best. how about the river raise?

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

That's a bad flop to raise. You want to call and make the turn action easier to interpret if it's not a good card.

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

raise preflop, especially if you're not on the button

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

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yeah maybe a raise on the flop is best. how about the river raise?

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Unless BB is pretty passive, I'm not a big fan of raising for a free card here on the flop. On the river, it sure looks like the BB made his flush, I'd just call.

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

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raise preflop, especially if you're not on the button

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most def

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yeah maybe a raise on the flop is best. how about the river raise?

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Unless BB is pretty passive, I'm not a big fan of raising for a free card here on the flop. On the river, it sure looks like the BB made his flush, I'd just call.

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flop is a raise. given that the turn checked thru and you appeared to be drawing, I like a river call.

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

Call the river. The way BB played it it looks like he made a flush. The only worse hands that call you if you raise would be poorly played sets or two pair which don't seem likely give that the turn was checked through.

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

what's the problem?

conservative types usually don't bet this flop unless they can bet/3bet... so trying for a free card is shady at best.

turn check is fine.

river raise is fine too. yeah the flush got there, but w/dumb LAG calling villain's river donk, you're getting 2 to 1 on your raise. lot's of 2 pair hands will look you up here.

its an easy fold to a 3town if conservative guy takes it there.

results
 

I raised the river because of the guy in between who called and the fact that the guy in the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair. My friend who was sweating my hand thought the river raise was bad. I thought it was an ok raise as long as I could fold to a 3 bet. Just calling the river doesn't seem right here for some reason. I don't know. Perhaps someone could tell me why or why not.

Anyway the big blind 3 bet. Middle position cold called 2 more and I instantly mucked. big blind shows a flush, and the middle position flashes 87o and mucks.

Re: results
 

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I raised the river because of the guy in between who called and the fact that the guy in the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair. My friend who was sweating my hand thought the river raise was bad. I thought it was an ok raise as long as I could fold to a 3 bet. Just calling the river doesn't seem right here for some reason. I don't know. Perhaps someone could tell me why or why not.

Anyway the big blind 3 bet. Middle position cold called 2 more and I instantly mucked. big blind shows a flush, and the middle position flashes 87o and mucks.

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nice hand.

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the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair.

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Don't you think that he would have bet that hand on the turn?


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Just calling the river doesn't seem right here for some reason. I don't know. Perhaps someone could tell me why or why not.

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The BB almost always has a flush with that betting pattern and you can't beat it, that's why a raise is bad.

Re: results
 

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The BB almost always has a flush with that betting pattern and you can't beat it, that's why a raise is bad.

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getting 2 to 1 on your raise? if you can safely fold to a 3bet i think raising is fine.

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The BB almost always has a flush with that betting pattern and you can't beat it, that's why a raise is bad.

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getting 2 to 1 on your raise? if you can safely fold to a 3bet i think raising is fine.

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Getting 2:1 when you're a 10:1 dog is still a bad bet. Sorry you're wrong here. It may not be a full 1BB mistake, but it's pretty close to it.

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The BB almost always has a flush with that betting pattern and you can't beat it, that's why a raise is bad.

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getting 2 to 1 on your raise? if you can safely fold to a 3bet i think raising is fine.

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Getting 2:1 when you're a 10:1 dog is still a bad bet. Sorry you're wrong here. It may not be a full 1BB mistake, but it's pretty close to it.

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Barry --

OP is nowhere near a 10:1 dog. Very often these types of players think "crap, multiway pot, scary!" on the turn and "hm, turn got checked through, guess my jack/two pair is good" on the river. Also, I'm not big on raising/folding to 3, but this is an easy spot to fold to the third bet.

I think the raise is good, but maybe I'm wrong. I would be shocked if the BB "almost always" has a flush here.

Still plotting revenge for the beats you laid that session at the Wynn,

--Nate

Re: results
 

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I think the raise is good, but maybe I'm wrong. I would be shocked if the BB "almost always" has a flush here.


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yeah, seriously. just calling with the nut straight here is so weak.

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the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair.

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Don't you think that he would have bet that hand on the turn?


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p.s. you could make a good case for folding pre.

Re: results
 

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Big blind who usually plays pretty conservatively

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I don't think he's going to lead into 2 players w/ 2 pair here when all the obvious draws got there unless he did too.

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Still plotting revenge for the beats you laid that session at the Wynn

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I only remember the KJ hand as a beat, but since you guys were playing very aggro PF, I didn't think that I was in bad shape vs. your ranges there. In that case, you had a real hand. I also remember a few beats that you laid on me too. The J3 sooted comes to mind...

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the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair.

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Don't you think that he would have bet that hand on the turn?


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p.s. you could make a good case for folding pre.

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no.

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I think the raise is good, but maybe I'm wrong. I would be shocked if the BB "almost always" has a flush here.


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yeah, seriously. just calling with the nut straight here is so weak.

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the way the hand was played, I really dont see a worse hand calling ur raise on this river

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the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair.

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Don't you think that he would have bet that hand on the turn?


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p.s. you could make a good case for folding pre.

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no.

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no?

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I raised the river because of the guy in between who called and the fact that the guy in the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair

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What two pair are you putting him on that plays like that. If he was on a rush he would probably bet any J when a blank falls on the turn, no? 95 96 is going to bet into two players that are probably on draws when a card falls on the river that completes two different draws?

Re: results
 

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the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair.

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Don't you think that he would have bet that hand on the turn?


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p.s. you could make a good case for folding pre.

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no.

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no?

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you can't make a case for folding preflop

Re: results
 

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the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair.

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Don't you think that he would have bet that hand on the turn?


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p.s. you could make a good case for folding pre.

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no.

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no?

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I think it goes from best to worst:

1. call
2. raise
3. fold

Re: results
 

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Still plotting revenge for the beats you laid that session at the Wynn

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I only remember the KJ hand as a beat, but since you guys were playing very aggro PF, I didn't think that I was in bad shape vs. your ranges there.

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Ha! We were both opening liberally, but when I raise UTG and the other guy three-bets UTG+1, and the other guy is noted poker thinker FoxwoodsFiend, KJ is in bad shape. (Let this be a lesson to you all! Even the renowned Barry is susceptible to overcompensation for perceived opposition aggression!)

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In that case, you had a real hand. I also remember a few beats that you laid on me too. The J3 sooted comes to mind...

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Yeah, probably a liberal blind-steal against a guy I had pegged as an East Coast nit. Who knew you were the renowned Barry?

Good meeting you, by the way. (Really.) Also, turns out you were sitting right in front of us at the Foxwoods WPT final table taping last year.

--Nate

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

Flop is an easy raise for a freebie. I certainly don't quibble with raising the river, but if you're three-bet by the BB, I'd lay it down.

Jeff

Re: results
 

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the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair.

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Don't you think that he would have bet that hand on the turn?


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p.s. you could make a good case for folding pre.

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Really? I would like to hear the reasoning behind this.

Re: results
 

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the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair.

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Don't you think that he would have bet that hand on the turn?


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Just calling the river doesn't seem right here for some reason. I don't know. Perhaps someone could tell me why or why not.

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The BB almost always has a flush with that betting pattern and you can't beat it, that's why a raise is bad.

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He would definitely bet two pair on the turn. Obviously he didn't have two pair on the turn. I thought he made two pair on the river. I don't think he is tricky enough, but there is also the possibility that since he knows me well and knows im aggressive, he could be checking the turn to check raise it also.

I think saying that the big blind almost always has a flush here is stretching it. There are a lot of hands he would bet on the river, since there was still a donkey in between and I played the hand like a weak made hand rather than a draw since i would be raising a lot of draws from where I was.

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I think the raise is good, but maybe I'm wrong. I would be shocked if the BB "almost always" has a flush here.


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yeah, seriously. just calling with the nut straight here is so weak.

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the way the hand was played, I really dont see a worse hand calling ur raise on this river

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you really don't see a single worse hand calling my raise on the river?

Secondly, even if that is true, which I disagree with, how about the guy in the middle?

Re: results
 

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the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair.

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Don't you think that he would have bet that hand on the turn?


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p.s. you could make a good case for folding pre.

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no.

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no?

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you can't make a case for folding preflop

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this is so wrong its silly.

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

I don't thiink the BB would check the turn with any made hand here. When he checks the turn, you can pretty much put him on a draw of some kind. Of course this won't always be true, but most of the time. Too many draws on that board for him to check anything reasonable. Conclusion: Don't raise the river.

-MD

Re: results
 

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the big blind while timid usually, was on a rush and would be aggressive enough now to bet two pair.

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Don't you think that he would have bet that hand on the turn?


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p.s. you could make a good case for folding pre.

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no.

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no?

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you can't make a case for folding preflop

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this is so wrong its silly.

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Preflop: Unlike what had been going on, 4 players limp to me. I limp with 8d7d

go ahead, make your case.

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

I'm not going to get into a huge PF debate here, but clearly this is an ideal situation to raise PF with this type of hand. And if you're in the CO or HJ instead of the button, you should be MUCH, MUCH MORE inclined to do so.

Whoever said fold PF must have misread the OP. Giving away money is not cool...

Re: results
 

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I thought it was an ok raise as long as I could fold to a 3 bet. Just calling the river doesn't seem right here for some reason. I don't know. Perhaps someone could tell me why or why not.

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Considering folding the winning hand for 1 more bet is by far the biggest mistake you can make in limit holdem, I'm not a big fan of the "raise and fold to a 3 bet" line.

Having said that, this river is the perfect spot to do it. Few players are strong or smart enough to do it with a worse hand than you.

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I thought it was an ok raise as long as I could fold to a 3 bet. Just calling the river doesn't seem right here for some reason. I don't know. Perhaps someone could tell me why or why not.

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Considering folding the winning hand for 1 more bet is by far the biggest mistake you can make in limit holdem, I'm not a big fan of the "raise and fold to a 3 bet" line.

Having said that, this river is the perfect spot to do it. Few players are strong or smart enough to do it with a worse hand than you.

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At the Borgata playing $40/$80 and $20/$40, being outplayed is the very least of my worries. I will never get 3 bet here with a worse hand. I just wanted to know if anyone thought that with the way the hand played out if a raise would be profitable here, especially considering the donkey in the middle of all the action.

Re: results
 

ok here's my case.


when you clearly dont know how to value bet in slim spots like you're gonna get in hands like this, then you fold. if you're able to play them and not lose more than you should with these type of hands, then you can play them. but clearly OP is having trouble knowing when to raise, fold, and call in spots where it's not so ABC clear.

these type of speculative hands can make money if you play them well, but they also get you in spots where you lose a lot with them as well if you're not careful. think about how many times you end up paying off, or even worse, raising! in spots like this when if you had folded pre, ther would be no issue.

playing hands like this in multi-way pots is a great tool in switching it up, playing big drawing pots.. but you lose more than you win when you make spewy river raises in spots when you're clearly beat. these hands do not have a lot of value, and when you dont play them correctly, theyre a losing hand in the long term.

Re: results
 

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ok here's my case.


when you clearly dont know how to value bet in slim spots like you're gonna get in hands like this, then you fold. if you're able to play them and not lose more than you should with these type of hands, then you can play them. but clearly OP is having trouble knowing when to raise, fold, and call in spots where it's not so ABC clear.

these type of speculative hands can make money if you play them well, but they also get you in spots where you lose a lot with them as well if you're not careful. think about how many times you end up paying off, or even worse, raising! in spots like this when if you had folded pre, ther would be no issue.

playing hands like this in multi-way pots is a great tool in switching it up, playing big drawing pots.. but you lose more than you win when you make spewy river raises in spots when you're clearly beat. these hands do not have a lot of value, and when you dont play them correctly, theyre a losing hand in the long term.

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my god.

Re: results
 

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ok here's my case.


when you clearly dont know how to value bet in slim spots like you're gonna get in hands like this, then you fold. if you're able to play them and not lose more than you should with these type of hands, then you can play them. but clearly OP is having trouble knowing when to raise, fold, and call in spots where it's not so ABC clear.

these type of speculative hands can make money if you play them well, but they also get you in spots where you lose a lot with them as well if you're not careful. think about how many times you end up paying off, or even worse, raising! in spots like this when if you had folded pre, ther would be no issue.

playing hands like this in multi-way pots is a great tool in switching it up, playing big drawing pots.. but you lose more than you win when you make spewy river raises in spots when you're clearly beat. these hands do not have a lot of value, and when you dont play them correctly, theyre a losing hand in the long term.

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you just made a great case for folding pretty much every hand that isn't JJ+

Re: $20/$40 hand
 

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At the Borgata. not a very good game, I'm playing it with my friend before going to bed.

Preflop: Unlike what had been going on, 4 players limp to me. I limp with 8d7d, blinds check.

Flop: J 6 5 two hearts. Big blind who usually plays pretty conservatively but is on a huge rush leads. A loose overaggressive guy calls, and I call.

Turn: some blank I forgot. Checked around.

River: 9h. Big blind leads, guy calls, I raise.

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preflop is fine. folding here is simply horrible, and it is not close.

flop, just call.

turn, fine.

river, you have to play poker, but i think i'm raising and folding to 3town.