Playing Well against Rookies
 

I've been playing and studying poker for about a year now, and while I am a very quick study, have a hunger for learning and have had some success, I consider myself average at best with lots to learn. One thing I have noticed as this game gets more and more popular, is that I find myself invited to a lot more "social" poker events. Small cash games at friend's houses, small buy-in tourneys at friends-of-friend's houses, etc.

In those venues, I am seeing more and more what I like to call "talkers". They tell you all about how great they are at poker, how long they've been playing, and bad beat after bad beat story. Rarely though, have any of these players impressed me at the table with thier play. I see alot of basic starting hand knowledge, but few skills after the flop.

I seem to find more success against better players at higher limit tables either at the casino, or online. I know this goes against all the advice for beginners I have seen, but it just seems like I can really play better in these scenarios. I cannot ever seem to win against lesser players who don't seem to care about my actions or follow any type of reads. They all just seem to play thier cards, so I have a hard time really applying any of the concepts I work so hard at mastering in these types of games.

I guess my question is this - Is there a general philosophy on how to alter your game to suit a "no-fold-'em hold'em style game? What is wrong with me, that I can manage a small bankroll in live or online games against seemingly better players, but get killed against players who only seem consumed with the cards?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

it depends on stack sizes. if they are pretty deep you should be trying to see a lot of cheap flops. dont bluff. never ever naked bluff. bet your good hands, fold your bad hands, it really is pretty easy.

also dont ever try to play tricky. all you have to do to play with people that are only aware of the 1st level (playing their hand, not aware of other people) is to play your hands on the 2nd level.

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

Thanks a bunch. Kind of goes with what I expected to hear, but the "don't play tricky" part really rings true. I guess I probably have a tendancy to out-think myself in those situations.

Also, the "see alot of cheap flops". I think I tend to follow the old rule of when they're bad (other players), tighten up, thereby limiting the flops that I get to see.

Thanks for the advice. There is so much to learn, I guess you have to be careful to not outsmart yourself as you are learning eh? Hopefully my small-stakes tourney tonight will go better than the last few.

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

I had the same problem (and still screw it up from time to time), but here's the deal:

Don't get fancy with fish (do i need to put that in all caps?)

It's good that you've learned enough to read the board somewhat, put your opponent on a hand to a degree, and make sophisticated bluffs. Problem is, against many a fish, bluffs have no power. You're sophisticated poker is meaningless to them. Just tell your self that one day when you get to a higher level, you'll pull some tricks out of your bag and try them out, but for now, playing small stakes against poor players, just value bet.

Don't get fancy, no need. Save your fancy moves for better players, and then make sure they are able to lay down decent hands if you are gonna try a move. and don't over do it. In small stakes, i know it's boring and tedious at times, just show a hand, value bet when you got the best. Nothing fancy.

Now, this is coming from another small stakes player, so others with more exp. can chime in, but trust me on this, you lose more trying to make "moves" at low stakes poker than you gain. Or just do what I do, play a small-ball type of poker. Small c-bet bluffs on flops, but don't go further than that. Don't fire that second barrel except once in a blue moon at low stakes. And make sure you have a good read that the second barrel will work. For the most part, if the first smallish bluff doesn't take it, DON'T continue unless you have a real hand.

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

This is why I hate small stakes nl holdem. I simply get bored because you have to have a hand an I'm too impatient to wait. Too me its fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, get called all in and hope the fish doesnt suck out.

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

If you can't beat those players, then you have a lot to learn.

-MD

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

Since that last post probably wasn't too helpful, I thought I'd add this piece of advice:
These sorts of new/casual players are usually the easiest to read. They hardly ever bluff, they fold their worst hands, call medium hands, and raise good hands. The bigger the raise, the bigger the hand. If they think you can play pretty well, they will play quite passively. Don't make the mistake of assuming that a caller is beaten. These guys will call you down with top two and such. Just try to play pure value poker. Try to play small pots and don't call huge bets without a read. So what if he bluffed you one time? You'll get him the next one.

-MD

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

Thanks for the helpful posts. They seem to be spot on and I agree, it seems alot more exciting to play somewhat higher limits with better players. I always just figured that it was because the financial swings were greater and that that feeling was almost a human nature thing that you don't want to get sucked into. But looking at it from that perspective, I think I agree that smaller stakes with more straight-up opponents is not nearly as much fun or I guess, if I just tighten up...challenging.

That brings me to another question - what is the cut-off between small stakes, medium stakes and high stakes. I would also assume that live vs. online would play a role in stakes as well. I sure see alot of better play at a $50.00 NL online table than I ever have at a $100.00 live table. It seems that for whatever reason, money is more valued on-line? Does this seem correct? Do you think there is a large difference in the players sitting at a $200 NL table vs. the players playing at a $50 NL table online? What about live? Your thoughts?

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

I think for the most part we are dealing with generalities.

What i mean is, as a general rule you do what we've said here on small stakes tables. But that doesn't mean that if you come across a decent player that you shouldn't try to make moves against him. But, for the most part small-stakes players are bad, and there is no need to do much beyond value bet.

One in a blue moon you will find a decent small-stakes player (heck, i consider myself one, somedays). For example, in my weekly home game, most everyone is pretty bad (play big pots with mediocre hands, chase every draw, very loose preflop ... etc.) But one guy (my roomate actually) is a pretty good player. So we both joke about how we valuebet everyone else at the table, but when we are in a hand against each other, we can actually play a little bit more complex poker, as far bluffing, and making reads, etc.

I would think at higher stakes there are generalities as well, like at NL $10/20 you run into a lot better players, for the most part, but then you also run into tuffish and the like sometimes too, so you vary your play.

But again, as a general rule, just valuebet small stakes. (By the way, i try to entertain myself when im folding hand after hand by seeing what other people are playing with and willing to get stacked with. It's a little bit of poker snobishness on my part, ill admit, but keeps me amused while i am waiting for a value hand.)

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

[ QUOTE ]

Also, the "see alot of cheap flops". I think I tend to follow the old rule of when they're bad (other players), tighten up, thereby limiting the flops that I get to see.



[/ QUOTE ]

Is that the rule? Actually I think that's limit advice and its not nearly nuanced enough a rule even for limit to be very usefull. Bad players, generally speaking, are more willing to get stacked with marginal holdings in NL. So you can see the flop with hands that can make big holdings because your implied odds are so high.

Of cousre you'll get sucked out on plenty too, but that's poker for ya.

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

You are probably right about that rule - I call it a rule, because it's the advice I hear most...."tighten up against bad players and play the percentages against them. Overall, you'll beat them". I have always equated this to playing tighter pre-flop, but I think the moral here is not necessarily that. Post-flop is where I am learning you want to play more solid poker.

To that end, I have noticed that while these "rookies" rarely meet two cards they don't like, seem to call everything, and you can't always get a good read on where you are at in the hand, they also let you in the pot for cheap. You see very few pre-flop raises and when you do, you usually know where you are in the hand, so the call is almost easier. So kind of talking this thing through here, I guess the right advice is to see alot of flops and play good post-flop poker.

Along with the rest of the advice that came in....i.e, rarely bluff and never naked bluff...don't get too tricky, etc., I'm also learning that they are never reading you the way you think they are, or should. They don't think the same as you, so I guess remembering that will help.

Either way, I still got clobbered the other night in my home game again. Fish-boy chased a straight all the way to the river against all three of my pot-sized raises with the nuts and a board that should have told him to let it go.

Baited the hook, cast the line, hooked-up the fish, reeled him to the boat......then the river came and took my fish away....along with the rest of my chips. Oh well, I guess it's bound to happen. Thanks for all the good advice. Interesting discussion.

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

I'd just like to chime in as a moderately successful low-stakes NL player to say that the majority of my +EV is my postflop play. It's not so much that you need to tighten up preflop, so much as it is that you should expect to have to showdown your hand to win. Many times, you won't need much more than a pair. But...you are going to outstrip the rookies primarily on your postflop play.

Oh...also...the biggest disparity between you and rookies is going to be betting aptitude. 8 out of 10 low limit players have ZERO concept of how much to bet properly. They'll either underbet or severely overbet the pot. In the first case, you will often have the right odds to draw. On the second case, depending on the player, you'll either know to bail out or to call, if he's the sort of rookie who likes to shove his stack in with less than the nuts.

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

One thing I do notice with no-fold-em holdem against loose, sub-par players is that while you're sitting back waiting for a good hand, these guys are going to war with any two. After a few rounds, the smoke has cleared, and one of these cats is left with a MASSIVE stack (after all, SOMEONE has to come out on top after all of these A6 vs 88 match-ups).
How do you counter-act this?

1) Get good at heads-up, so you can routinely beat a donk with a 2 to 1 or even 3 to 1 chip lead.

2) Play hands cheaply that play well against multiple players. Small pairs and suited connectors. It just takes a big pot or two in a game like this to get to heads against an even stack.

3) VALUE BET!!!!!!!!!!!

4) Avoid suckouts.

Many players have trouble against LAG players, whether these LAGs are good or not. Get better against them ,and your results will improve.

Re: Playing Well against Rookies
 

Had this experience at a home 30 person tourney where in my estimation 20+ had no clue. Goat rodeo described this tourney.

Early on I get pocket Jacks and raise 3x big blind. 6 callers! I think to myself, "Hmmmmm, I guess everyone's got a pocket pair". Flop is something like 8 4 2 rainbow. I bet pot. 4 callers! Turn = 6 or something. Bet pot. 2 callers. River is a J giving me a set.
Bet a large amount and get same two callers. One had a pair of 4s the other had pocket aces!