A question for CA 5-150 players
 

I played in the 5-150 for the first time tonight. I made a 'zillion' mistakes brought over from limit. I don't mind, it's part of the learning curve. My questions are regarding the player behavior at the table and I want to know if it's standard. I've gotten used to what I consider to be bad etiquette (a quaint old-fashioned concept) at the limit games but what I saw at the 5-150 was really out of hand as far as I'm concerned.

There was plenty of coffeehousing and trash talk. OK. I'm not a prude or kill-joy. I can live with that. There was also a lot of talking about the hands in progress and what various players might be playing both by the players in the hand and the players who folded. I heard players mention what cards they'd folded. During the play of a few hands one would ask another (after he folded) what he had that he couldn't continue on the turn and he'd be answered. Maybe they thought the players in the hand couldn't hear but I could and I imagine others could also. The worst was a hand where, on the turn HU, the player facing a bet mused out loud that he didn't think he could call. A few players said something like 'What? You've got to call! Look at all the money in the pot and you've only got $30 left! You must have something to call with!' To me that is just plain outrageous but nobody said anything.

So: Is that the way it is or did I just happen to be sitting at a 'strange' table?

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

No that is not normal and should be reported to the floor. Ask for a table change while you are talking to the floor, as they likely will not have the time to catch them red handed and put a stop to it.

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

That's horses$#t. Totally unacceptable.

Where was this?

Dealer should be shot if he didn't do anything.

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

Today I made quads on the turn. The guy who lead the turn lead the river for $75, but the dealer called him on string bet and told him to take $25 back. I had multiple players object with me, saying it's not the dealers job to call string bets, and she let the $75 stay. So in this case I didn't mind, unfortunately he folded to my $100 reraise allin in a huge pot.

There was a ton of table talk at my table, but all good natured. I didn't see anything out of line except maybe where one player pushes allin on the flop, another player calls, a third raises $150, enough to put the caller allin, and they coffehouse and ended up showing each other their hands. The allin player started to object, then realized he had no chance to win and dropped it.The bettor had two pair, the other player a small flush draw, and he ends up calling, rivering the flush. I didn't think it was over the line, but not sure of the rule.

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

My Wife and her father played in that game last night. She just plays for fun but somehow managed to win a hundred bucks or so. She told me her dad got in a fight with the dealer and got thrown out. He plays in a lot of the tournaments and recently told me that he's become a total nit about EVERYTHING.

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

at Windsor people talk all the time. No one really says anything except for 2 dealers who wont let you talk about the hand at all. Most people out of the hand are saying you gotta call, you have this? and so on. I normally keep my mouth shut cause I dont want to piss of the fish.

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

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I played in the 5-150 for the first time tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a little search and assume this is the Casino Arizona version of NL Holdem. Am I right?



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I've gotten used to what I consider to be bad etiquette (a quaint old-fashioned concept) at the limit games but what I saw at the 5-150 was really out of hand as far as I'm concerned.

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Yeah, ettiquette is quite ouf of style these days in these new NL games. We old folks who started in limit (I'm 52) probably have to get used to it (NOT!).



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There was plenty of coffeehousing and trash talk. OK. I'm not a prude or kill-joy. I can live with that.

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Me too.



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There was also a lot of talking about the hands in progress and what various players might be playing both by the players in the hand and the players who folded. I heard players mention what cards they'd folded. During the play of a few hands one would ask another (after he folded) what he had that he couldn't continue on the turn and he'd be answered. Maybe they thought the players in the hand couldn't hear but I could and I imagine others could also.

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This is SOP in 90% of the NL games I play in (usually with 3-5 blinds up to 5/10 blinds) and it]s probably much worse in the smaller games so they are getting good training to continue this new tradition. I believe this is problem number one and intend to write about it in some detail soon, perhaps partly this morning given the inspiration of this and the Jive thread.



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The worst was a hand where, on the turn HU, the player facing a bet mused out loud that he didn't think he could call. A few players said something like 'What? You've got to call! Look at all the money in the pot and you've only got $30 left! You must have something to call with!' To me that is just plain outrageous but nobody said anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to get out and get going today but I'll eventually post a few stories about even worse incidents in a lead thread regarding "group decisions" in NL. For now check out this post in the Thursday night Live at the Bike thread. Note I made some follow on posts elsewhere in that thread and in the next days Live at the Bike thread.



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So: Is that the way it is or did I just happen to be sitting at a 'strange' table?

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This is the way it is in LA. I do believe the coffeehousing and directly related indiscretions are the biggest problems facing NL. Due to TV the game is growing despite the house not doing much about it but eventually the games will get tougher and they will notice the customers they lose because this is so out of control. I'll try to add more comments elsewhere in this thread and in the nearby Jive thread.

~ Rick

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

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No that is not normal and should be reported to the floor. Ask for a table change while you are talking to the floor, as they likely will not have the time to catch them red handed and put a stop to it.

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Glad to see things are better in Arizona (assume this from your bio). In LA you would be hard pressed to find a game with blinds 5/10 and under (perhaps except the un-restricted buyin games) where this doesn't happen. It's no wonder Jamie Gold came from playing these games in LA.

The floor will say something but in general the house and floor staff are not being pro-active as they should be.

~ Rick

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

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Dealer should be shot if he didn't do anything.

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Although the dealers have a role, it is unrealistic to expect them to do much if they don't have the full backing of the floor. And the floor won't do much if they don't have the full backing of management. This is the case in LA in my experience.

~ Rick

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

[ QUOTE ]
at Windsor people talk all the time. No one really says anything except for 2 dealers who wont let you talk about the hand at all. Most people out of the hand are saying you gotta call, you have this? and so on. I normally keep my mouth shut cause I dont want to piss of the fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is eventually the good player to fish ratio is going to invert and this type of thing is going to aid in the destruction of the games.

~ Rick

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

How about this one? Last night. Bay 101. I had pocket tens. Flop comes Qxx rainbow. I had the lead, and I continuation-bet $40. Young, intellegent guy on my left goes all-in for $68 total, and it was folded around to me. I knew absolutely he had queens or better. No doubt. So I started figuring if I had the 10 point something to 1 odds I needed to call. Okay, 10 is a pretty easy number for us decimal types, but I couldn't think because EVERYONE at the table was loudly telling me to call, because it only cost $28 more. I told them to be quiet and let me think, but that only provoked more taunts. There wasn't anywhere near $280 in the pot, so I laid the hand down to a chorus of jeers. Afterwards, I appologized to my opponent for the others' behavior. One guy who looked to be in his fifties said, "You're right." Nothing from the others.

That wasn't the worst incident of the night. A man called me out of turn, and I'm pretty sure it cost me $120 I would have gotten from the guy in front of him, who was messing with his chips and fishing for a tell from his left hand opponent. The upside is the culprit called with a naked flush draw (he proudly showed the losing hand) without anything like the right odds. I had a set, BTW. Funny thing is, if he had hit a flush card that didn't pair the board, his calling out of turn would have cost HIM $120. But he was so excited to be drawing to the nuts that he almost soiled himself in anticipation.

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

I agree about the floor needing to back the dealers if we expect them to address the behavior.

But, I recall that I learned some of these very lessons as a newbie when inappropriate behavior at the table (sometimes, even my own) was addressed by players in hands. In fact, sometimes this was done loudly and harshly, and, even if it wasn't my own behavior, I quickly got the messaage...

Shouldn't players address this directly? After all, it's in everyone's interest, even the rude players'....

P. S. You should see me in a movie theater when other customers begin carrying on as if they were in their own livingrooms....

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree about the floor needing to back the dealers if we expect them to address the behavior.

But, I recall that I learned some of these very lessons as a newbie when inappropriate behavior at the table (sometimes, even my own) was addressed by players in hands. In fact, sometimes this was done loudly and harshly, and, even if it wasn't my own behavior, I quickly got the messaage...

Shouldn't players address this directly? After all, it's in everyone's interest, even the rude players'....

P. S. You should see me in a movie theater when other customers begin carrying on as if they were in their own livingrooms....

[/ QUOTE ]

At Bay 101 where I play, there are a few dealers who can and will take some responsibility, but only a few. I don't like to get them involved though, because the jackasses are frequently the best tippers. The concept of the dealer running the game has failed utterly.

For the first six years of my casino card playing there was no house dealer, and the games generally ran smooth as silk. (There were those who said there was cheating going on, but if there was any cheating in the games I played in, they must have cheated someone else.)

The house needs to educate both the dealers and the players alike.

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

The worst one that happened to me in the 5-150 was...

Solid player is in seat 3, his buddy in 4, me in 5. 3 is OTB and raises to 25 after it folds to him, buddy calls, I call with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Flop come K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I lead for $50 after SB checks, OTB RR to $100, SB folds and I call knowing his OTB raise range is pretty wide, likely a lessor K. Turn Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I check/call $100. River 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] giving me the str8 flush...

I lead for $75, OTB insta RR $150, I insta RR $150, we go 5 RR $150 in lightning speed and the dealer has to stop us because we weren't moving chips, just making verbal raises.

I decide to double check my J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] since I had been up for >24 hours, yep still the J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I guess his buddy seen my hand when I checked, and he leans back and tells his buddy that I have the J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. His buddy says he doesn't care because he has the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], then his buddy points out that the J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] makes the str8 flush. I was so stunned and tired that I did not shut the buddy up... OTB calls the last raise and I sweep a large pot with OTB still having about $750 behind.

I was VERY VERY pissed. OTB was tired too and did not think about the str8 flush. There was no cap on raises HU and once the dealer got the RR worked out, we would have felted.

I told the buddy that if he EVER did that I again I would beat him to a pulp. He seemed to not know what I was talking about when his buddy echo'ed my statement, and that he had better never do it again. OTB got up cashed out and came back by the table... "I am not sure I would have not figured out you had the nuts or not, but I am sure I would lost most of my stack, sorry about that, it will never happen again". Then he stuffed $500 in the shirt pocket. I tried to refuse repeatedly, but he would have none of it.

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

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Glad to see things are better in Arizona (assume this from your bio). In LA you would be hard pressed to find a game with blinds 5/10 and under (perhaps except the un-restricted buyin games) where this doesn't happen. It's no wonder Jamie Gold came from playing these games in LA.

The floor will say something but in general the house and floor staff are not being pro-active as they should be.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, Casino Arizona

The "newer" floor staff that has come up thru the ranks are pretty good in the high limit section, which is where the 5-150 is spread. They would put an end to that BS ASAP assuming they were not running around collecting time, or having to mess with some promotion crap.

I have talked to them about things happening at the table before, and have only been let down once, when they were running some promotion and had to go collect tickets from each table and the mess that comes with that.

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

[ QUOTE ]
The worst one that happened to me in the 5-150 was...

Solid player is in seat 3, his buddy in 4, me in 5. 3 is OTB and raises to 25 after it folds to him, buddy calls, I call with KJ. Flop come KTx, I lead for $50 after SB checks, OTB RR to $100, SB folds and I call knowing his OTB raise range is pretty wide, likely a lessor K. Turn Q, I check/call $100. River 9 giving me the str8 flush...

I lead for $75, OTB insta RR $150, I insta RR $150, we go 5 RR $150 in lightning speed and the dealer has to stop us because we weren't moving chips, just making verbal raises.

I decide to double check my J since I had been up for >24 hours, yep still the J. I guess his buddy seen my hand when I checked, and he leans back and tells his buddy that I have the J. His buddy says he doesn't care because he has the A, then his buddy points out that the J makes the str8 flush. I was so stunned and tired that I did not shut the buddy up... OTB calls the last raise and I sweep a large pot with OTB still having about $750 behind.

I was VERY VERY pissed. OTB was tired too and did not think about the str8 flush. There was no cap on raises HU and once the dealer got the RR worked out, we would have felted.

I told the buddy that if he EVER did that I again I would beat him to a pulp. He seemed to not know what I was talking about when his buddy echo'ed my statement, and that he had better never do it again. OTB got up cashed out and came back by the table... "I am not sure I would have not figured out you had the nuts or not, but I am sure I would lost most of my stack, sorry about that, it will never happen again". Then he stuffed $500 in the shirt pocket. I tried to refuse repeatedly, but he would have none of it.


[/ QUOTE ] wow I woulda flipped the table over. then beat him down.

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about this one? Last night. Bay 101. I had pocket tens. Flop comes Qxx rainbow. I had the lead, and I continuation-bet $40. Young, intellegent guy on my left goes all-in for $68 total, and it was folded around to me. I knew absolutely he had queens or better. No doubt. So I started figuring if I had the 10 point something to 1 odds I needed to call. Okay, 10 is a pretty easy number for us decimal types, but I couldn't think because EVERYONE at the table was loudly telling me to call, because it only cost $28 more. I told them to be quiet and let me think, but that only provoked more taunts. There wasn't anywhere near $280 in the pot, so I laid the hand down to a chorus of jeers. Afterwards, I appologized to my opponent for the others' behavior. One guy who looked to be in his fifties said, "You're right." Nothing from the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good move on your part apologizing to your opponent for the other's behavior. But you had to be very sure your opponent was a "young, intelligent guy". Sometimes people go "allin" just to get it over with and go home. Anyway, hope you enjoy my story in your thread.




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That wasn't the worst incident of the night. A man called me out of turn, and I'm pretty sure it cost me $120 I would have gotten from the guy in front of him, who was messing with his chips and fishing for a tell from his left hand opponent. The upside is the culprit called with a naked flush draw (he proudly showed the losing hand) without anything like the right odds. I had a set, BTW. Funny thing is, if he had hit a flush card that didn't pair the board, his calling out of turn would have cost HIM $120. But he was so excited to be drawing to the nuts that he almost soiled himself in anticipation.

[/ QUOTE ]


I haven't had time to respond to the "out of turn" protection yet but remember years ago complaining in a 2+2 thread about how people folding out of turn often costs me the pot (my example was the simple case where I bet the river in limit with a weakish hand into what I think is a slightly stronger hand with a missed draw acting last - the guy caught in the middle could see the draw folding out of turn so he made a very weak call he couldn't otherwise make).

Ray Zee chimed in and told me to grow up and face reality. He wrote that top players consider the fact that people won't act in turn before they make the play and top players realize that over their career they make far more money than they lose because so many players in fact do this (he's right, for example in many games I get two or three buttons every round because players telegraph their intentions).

That said, it still gets players upset and the clubs should do what they can to control it. But this may be less realistic than controlling coffee-housing.

~ Rick

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

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I have talked to them about things happening at the table before, and have only been let down once, when they were running some promotion and had to go collect tickets from each table and the mess that comes with that.

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Side point but one thing I like about "Frequent Player's" credit type cards is that the once per hour scanning has virtually eliminated promotions involving tickets. God I hated those when I worked the floor ten years ago.

~ Rick

PS Best friend and I hope to make our first ever trip to Casino Arizona in a few weeks. We may post some questions about weekday lodging and the games on B&M.

~ Rick

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

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But you had to be very sure your opponent was a "young, intelligent guy". Sometimes people go "allin" just to get it over with and go home.

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Don't worry. I was 99.44% sure. The only way I was ahead was if he misread his cards. But he checked again before pushing.

Re: A question for CA 5-150 players
 

5-150 at CAZ is my favorite game in the world right now. I'm not a fan at other places around AZ, but I think the out of control aspect on friday/saturday evenings makes the games more of a mind play. People do all kinds of things I'm sure are against the rules in many cardrooms (talking during hands they're not in, pushing people to call, acting out of turn, borderline string bets, etc). I'm by no means a pro or a shark, but the last few times I played there I lied like crazy to build a pushover table image (will whiff a flop, make a tiny bet, then fold to a raise, or medium/large bet on turn). People get in to coaching people in hands, and after I do this I'll annouce I folded a low flush, bottom set, etc., which makes them think I'm a NUTS only net peddler, and can bought out almost any pot. Then, when I actually have a hand I want to play getting the crazies to put in a fair portion of their stack (especially since mine is tiny) usually ends up with one or two big pots and then a quick exit by me.

Granted my playing time/sample size is much much smaller than most people here, I've had decent success buying in short in the 5-150, going for a quick score at a wild table, then leaving. I think at lower limits, the idiot behavior of most people who learn from TV isn't a bad thing. In higher limits with more serious play, everything that happens in CAZ 5-150 would be so off limits.