5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

I feel like this is a situation that i've gotten myself into a lot preflop lately. I'm curious what you think of my play on all streets.


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (8 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

This is fine. You'll get shown 9x and worse Kx hands often. Better hands usually bet the turn (planning to crying call down a raise). AK may have capped pf.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

Assuming you were just calling the flop b/c you were planning to raise the turn, I like it. I think capping the flop would have been fine too. Maybe I over-value these sort of hands heads-up, but I think you are good the vast majority of the time here.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming you were just calling the flop b/c you were planning to raise the turn, I like it. I think capping the flop would have been fine too. Maybe I over-value these sort of hands heads-up, but I think you are good the vast majority of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the call on the flop is to raise a safe turn. This wasn't the best turn in the world, but i decided when he checked I had to find out where i was at. Is this flop/turn line too weak? should i just be jamming until i get raised on a later street? Thanks.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

Good 3-bet preflop. Good situation to be in.

Villain's line here is confusing as in why did that [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] stop him on the turn and river? If he somehow beat you in this hand take notes.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

Superstandard. Doing anything but what you did would be a pretty big error (allowing for the deviation of calling the flop and raising the turn/river)

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
This wasn't the best turn in the world, but i decided when he checked I had to find out where i was at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right play, wrong reasoning. If you want to find out where you're at you can check behind and lose at most 1BB on the river. You bet the turn to get called twice by a worse pair, not for "information".

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

I cap the flop, but otherwise play it the same way.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

I also think it was o good play.
I would have played it the same way:)

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to find out where you're at you can check behind and lose at most 1BB on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rest of what you said is spot on, but this is a terrible spot to check behind on the turn.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I cap the flop, but otherwise play it the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my only other thought. Was Hero intending on raising a blank turn? I kind of like that line too. I just think we should put in a little more action than basically a raise-flop/call down line.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's my only other thought. Was Hero intending on raising a blank turn? I kind of like that line too. I just think we should put in a little more action than basically a raise-flop/call down line.

[/ QUOTE ]

SB's flop 3bet says that he at least suspects that we're raising the flop on a draw or a hand less than top pair. I think we actually get called down more often by a worse hand (assuming a decent opponent) if we cap the flop than if we go for the turn raise, especially when the obvious draw doesn't hit.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's my only other thought. Was Hero intending on raising a blank turn? I kind of like that line too. I just think we should put in a little more action than basically a raise-flop/call down line.

[/ QUOTE ]

SB's flop 3bet says that he at least suspects that we're raising the flop on a draw or a hand less than top pair. I think we actually get called down more often by a worse hand (assuming a decent opponent) if we cap the flop than if we go for the turn raise, especially when the obvious draw doesn't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Harv,

I agree with you 100%.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

I play the exact same - I smooth call the flop 3-bet with the intention of raising any turn card (I'm not too worried about needing a "safe" turn card in a blind battle - he could have so many different hands, that almost any turn card can be safe)

So yeah, I raise/call the flop to raise the turn.

I have notieced that against some good thinking opponents, what Harv72b said is true:


[ QUOTE ]
I think we actually get called down more often by a worse hand (assuming a decent opponent) if we cap the flop than if we go for the turn raise, especially when the obvious draw doesn't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

some good thinking opponents will recognize that the raise/call the flop, raise the turn line represents a strong enough hand that wanted to maximize value on the big streets. And they can lay it down on the turn. While if you just cap the flop, they'll go into calldown mode. So against someone like this, capping the flop is better all the time.

But I've found it tough to identify opponents like that without playing tons of hands with them - there's maybe 2 or 3 of the regulars that I play against live that might be able to fold a good hand in a spot like this on the turn in a blind battle.

So it's tough to know exactly when to use each line to maximize EV.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

I probably would have checked behind on the river. You shouldn't value bet a marginal hand like this in a pot this small. If he made the flush, he would have likely raised the turn, and certainly would have raised the river. I give him K With weak kicker.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I probably would have checked behind on the river. You shouldn't value bet a marginal hand like this in a pot this small. If he made the flush, he would have likely raised the turn, and certainly would have raised the river. I give him K With weak kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you give him a King with a weak kicker - then a bet is mandatory!!! He'll call - you'll win!!!

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I probably would have checked behind on the river. You shouldn't value bet a marginal hand like this in a pot this small. If he made the flush, he would have likely raised the turn, and certainly would have raised the river. I give him K With weak kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have no idea how much your bottom suffers if you continue to think about river play like this.

"You shouldn't value bet a marginal hand like this in a pot this small" is really, really, really WRONG.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have no idea how much your bottom suffers if you continue to think about river play like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should not have read this while drinking orange juice, as now my monitor has orange juice on it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I assume you meant to say bottom line?

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I cap the flop, but otherwise play it the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my only other thought. Was Hero intending on raising a blank turn? I kind of like that line too. I just think we should put in a little more action than basically a raise-flop/call down line.

[/ QUOTE ]

as previously stated, yes. i was going to raise a blank turn.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

Standard. NH

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have no idea how much your bottom suffers if you continue to think about river play like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should not have read this while drinking orange juice, as now my monitor has orange juice on it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I assume you meant to say bottom line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have no idea how much your bottom suffers if you continue to think about river play like this.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I should not have read this while drinking orange juice, as now my monitor has orange juice on it.


[/ QUOTE ]

As long as its your monitor and not your keyboard, its ok. Its hell to clean orange juice out of a keyboard.

Oh yeah, and if you don't value bet the river, your bottom should suffer as well as your bottom line.

Re: 5/10: Blind battle w/ KQs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain's line here is confusing as in why did that stop him on the turn and river? If he somehow beat you in this hand take notes.

[/ QUOTE ]

He probably has a weak king. Your raise on the flop, could have been for a draw, most likely spades, or you were raising because you liked your made hand. Either way, after the turn, he is in trouble.