How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

I’m a very logical person. I used to think that logical intelligent people will always do well at poker, and that people that are bad at math / logic that play by feel will do poorly. The super-analytical approach seemed superior to me in every way.

I would talk to players like H@llingol, MrSmokey1, Ozzy87, Sdouble, and even TheTakover and wonder how they had success. These are all great players, but their approach was so different from mine that I couldn’t understand it. None of these guys are particular adept at figuring out pot odds, or explaining the gap theory, yet they all do very well. I had to figure out why.

I recently read Introducing Neuro-Linguistic Programming by O’Connor and Seymour. NLP is essentially a psychological study of skills that lead to success in all facets of life, especially social interactions. I learned a lot about the learning process and the subconscious mind in this book. Namely the following:

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The Four Stages of Learning
1. Unconscious Incompetence
2. Conscious Incompetence
3. Conscious Competence
4. Unconscious Competence

Unlearning is 4 to 2.
Relearning is 2 back to 4 with more choices.

[/ QUOTE ]

To anyone that has studied psychology, it is probably very clear that the subconscious mind is a lot more powerful and capable than the conscious mind, which is why the learning process must work in the order listed above. Take poker for example.

1. At first it’s just a game. You might not realize how complicated it really is, and you certainly don’t realize how clueless you are.
2. Once you start with beginner strategy, you begin to realize how clueless you are.
3. After a while, the strategies you are learning start to sink in. You may begin thinking, “A8o in early position. The chart tells me to fold this, so I will fold it.”
4. You begin to fold A8o in EP without even thinking about it. Your subconscious mind has now taken over this step of the process, and your conscious mind now has more “memory space” to start thinking about other strategies.

The conscious mind is capable of between five and nine active thoughts at one time. The unconscious is capable of a lot more. It is integral to learning that we take our conscious thought processes and internalize them.

The first theory I came up with, is the “luck of learning” theory. One problem with the learning process in poker is that our brain is very results oriented. That doesn’t always work for poker. It is extremely hard to always be able to separate the results from our judgment in determining what is and what is not the correct play.

This leads to luck, or maybe I should say randomness, being involved in the learning process. Some players will 3-bet AK 4 times in a row, and lose all 4, and may start playing it slower, be it consciously or subconsciously. If this happens enough times, a bad habit may reach stage 4 of the learning process, where it is internalized. Once this stage is reached, it becomes a lot harder to go back and fix the problem, because at that point, it’s no longer thought of as a problem, but a solution.

I think that logical, intelligent players are a lot less likely to be affected by “bad luck” in the learning process. By thinking logically, they are able to better separate themselves from the results.

In general, only a very small percent of poker players are both logical and intelligent. However, a very high percentage of winning players are logical and intelligent. This is for fairly obvious reasons, so I won’t get into it.

What I want to talk about, are the non-logical players that do very well. But first, I guess I should quickly say what I mean when I refer to intelligence. When I say logical and intelligent, I am assuming the person has a very specific kind of intelligence, namely a mathematical intelligence. These people will do very well on the math portion of the SAT’s for example.

When I talk about non-logical players, notice I am not mentioning intelligence. I do believe intelligence is absolutely necessary to be a great poker player; however, these non-logical players have a different kind of intelligence. According to Dr. Howard Gardner there are seven forms of intelligence. “Logical intelligent” players will have Logical-Mathematical intelligence and often spatial intelligence. I find that the non-logical players that are successful often have a great deal of Interpersonal intelligence, and to a lesser extent, spatial intelligence.

Disclaimer: I am not well versed in psychology. The above is opinion based on my limited observation. I can not say with confidence that this is all accurate.

I’m getting slightly off topic here, so let me get back on track. What other traits do successful non-logical players have? I find they often play by feel, and can not properly externalize their plays. They have a feel for pot odds, but often can’t calculate them on the spot, even when the calculations are very simple. They often have poor bankroll management skills, and do not make good grinders. Some of them are actually losers at low stakes, and winners at high stakes. How can this be?

I believe that the biggest difference between low-stakes and high-stakes games is the importance of hand-reading skills. This is why some of the non-logical players will inevitably do extremely well.

The truth of the matter still is that most non-logical players, even intelligent ones, will fail early on in their poker career. I think this goes back to the “luck of learning” I talked about above. When learning, the “logical

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

you got cut off there.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

keep going, this is interesting.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker? Part 2
 

The truth of the matter still is that most non-logical players, even intelligent ones, will fail early on in their poker career. I think this goes back to the “luck of learning” I talked about above. When learning, the “logical intelligent” players rely less on luck, and are able to logically analyze situations well enough to somewhat remove the results from the equation. The non-logical players are not able to remove the results in the same way. They often don’t read the books that explain they must play tight, calculate pot-odds, and abide by other guidelines to do well. These fundamentals are the ones necessary to win, especially at low stakes. Essentially what I’m saying is that these players need a lot of luck to do well early on in their careers to learn the fundamentals internally. Getting past this seemingly trivial stage is very hard for many of these players. The few that do break through, will often have a natural tendency to read people, and will therefore do well relatively easily at higher stakes games, assuming they were “lucky” enough to learn the proper fundamentals.

I am often shocked at how many terrible plays the successful non-rational players are capable of making. I think my “luck of learning” theory explains this. They often have gaping holes in their fundamentals because they weren’t “lucky” enough to learn them properly. However, these poor fundamentals are often overshadowed by expert hand-reading skills that allow these players to do well in high stakes games. This is obviously not always the case, but I believe it is very often the case for the successful non-rational players.

I also find that the logical-intelligent players will often break through the low limits very easily. The fundamentals come quickly to them, especially if they are taught to them in a conventional manner (note that the logical players are much more likely to learn via traditional means like reading, rather than the non-rational players, many of whom have never read a poker book). After low stakes, these players often hit a brick wall that they can’t get past. Did you move up easily to 15/30 LHE or 3/6 NL online? Did you have trouble getting far past those limits? If so, this probably applies directly to you, and I know this applied doubly to me.

Often times these players will have had great success due to their logical intelligence, and they don’t realize, the main skill they need to master to start playing higher stakes games is that they need interpersonal, or hand reading skills. It is a very hard and slow process to develop these skills purely analytically. The subconscious mind will be much better able to recognize the patterns of their opponents.

For me, I first learned to play small-stakes LHE 6 handed. I then switched to Sit’n’gos. In both of these games, hand reading skills are very unimportant. When I moved to cash games, at first I struggled a lot. I didn’t have the proper hand reading skills.

The turning point for me was when I learned to trust my gut. When I say gut, I am talking about a very specific subconscious inclination, and it is much better than I am at telling me what hand or hand-range my opponent has, and how he will act with certain hands on future streets.

I find the most successful players in the world are the ones that are able to master both of these extreme opposites in skill that are both of paramount importance. You absolutely must learn the fundamentals, and this is best done through an analytical step by step process. After this, you must learn hand-reading skills, and the best way to do this is through natural practice, and distinguishing which “voices” coming from your unconscious mind you should listen to, and which ones you should ignore.

The unlearning and relearning processes I briefly mentioned above are also crucial. The “voices” are developed from reaching stage 4 of the learning process, but sometimes in poker we learn something that is incorrect. If we are able to pinpoint these mistakes in our game, and then properly unlearn and relearn the appropriate situations, we will always be one step ahead of the game. So if you have a little voice in your head that says “call, the pot is big” that happens to talk at the same time as your voice that says, “it’s a value bet, he has the nuts for sure”, you must try to externalize which one of these unconscious thoughts is more apt. In my personal experience, I have found the voice that tells me my opponents hand to be far more accurate than any other voice or inclination I have at the table.

When learning something as complicated as poker, I think it is extremely helpful to first take a look at the learning process itself and get a better idea of the intellectual journey you are about to embark upon. I made the mistake of trying to externalize all my thoughts, without realizing how powerful my unconscious mind can be. There is a reason that many poker players that play by feel will be successful. They have interpersonal skills that allow them to understand not only their opponents, but the overall flow of play in a particular poker game. These skills are rarely talked about in poker circles, because they are hard to rationalize.

The reason why the unconscious mind works better at this task is because of the sheer amount of information being processed. We could analyze our opponents play analytically: “Ok, he raised preflop, and he’s a tight player, so he has a decent hand. He bet the flop, but that could just be a continuation bet. He bet smaller on the turn, so maybe he has a good hand and is afraid of the flush, or maybe he’s milking a really strong hand. It’s also possible he has a pair and a straight draw, or some kind of combo hand. I don’t think he’s the type of player to fire a second barrel often, but maybe he’s doing it here because it’s unlikely that I hit this board hard.” Going through all the possibilities could take a long time, and I find that it is too hard to keep the many factors involved in a read active in the conscious mind. This is why this process is best internalized.

In the end, there should be a balance between the analytical mind, and the unconscious mind. I find it rare for people to maser the use of both of these. Most players can be summed up in one of the two categories I have laid out. However, if you want to be a truly versatile player, it is important that you learn to utilize both of these techniques constantly. The balance will not be easy to find, but it is a goal that every poker player should aspire to.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you got cut off there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I had no clue I had written that much.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Great post Justin!! Have to read that one a few times to really let it sink in.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Good post, Ive thought about this a little bit too.

I think they win because:

hand reading
strong mentality
willingness to gamble, etc.

IMO, calculating pot odds to the 5th decimal isnt that important.

Good post

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Awesome post, I really ejoyed reading it. This is something I've been thinking alot about lately.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

To your 2nd post, it rings so true.

I breezed through micro limits easily, but once I got to 5/10NL, I did hit a wall. The donks werent spewing chips nearly as much as 3/6, they werent paying off my tight conservative strategy.

I've been relearning the game since, and I think I might be ready..

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

ZJ,

This is one of the best posts this year imo.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Very nice post ZJ

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Good post, I thought about some of the same things when Paul Phillips mentioned this book in his blog

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Zee the list of players you compilled are all NL and Pl players. Hand reading and feel maybe the most valuable asset you can posses for these games. In Nl and Pl games math is important, but not nearly as useful as it is in Limit IMO(oviuosly). NL and Pl games mainly deal with implied odds.....which is completely player dependant.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ZJ,

This is one of the best posts this year imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

In my development, I have found great success in NL 6-Max 2/4 & 3/6. In NL Full Ring, I have had success from 2/4 upto 5/10. My approach has been logical in playing these games, playing more mechanically than anything else.

However, when I have moved up from time-to-time to 5/10NL (6-Max) and 10/20NL (FR) I have experienced nothing but problems. I have found myself getting beat by the non-rational players. At first, I felt I was getting more unlucky than anything else, but after several go-arounds I have noticed myself getting constantly beat by the non-rational players. I have found the inbred willingness to gamble of the non-rational players to create many problems for successfull players of the lower levels, who have a more straight-forward, mechanical approach.

Beyond 3/6 (6-Max) and 5/10 (FR), I admit I have much to work on in order to have a chance to beat those games.

* I think the seemingly irrational play of my successful opponents has gotten the best of my playing style in the bigger games, because I have been unable to successfully adapt. However, I would like to note the 'seemingly irrational' players, although they have more variance and have an unorthodox playing sytle, will more so than not break-down players like myself. I'll admit, these players nearly always get the best of me and until I improve my hand reading skills and open up my play at the correct times will only remain as a fish in the games.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Some of the ideas you mention are similar to those in the book "Blink" by Malcom Gladwell, which is a really great book. It is mainly about the power of the subconscious. I highly recommend it.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Very nice post. Does anyone else do this when faced with a tough decision? I go to each of my other tables and deal with whats going on there, maybe pop up my poker tracker browser, anything to distract myeslf from consciously thinking about the hand. Then when my timer is almost done I go back and find the answer to my decision is in my head. I agree 100%, I think the unconscious mind is a much better decision maker in poker than the conscious mind.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Excellent post ZJ. I don't have anything to add right now.

Do you recommend the book? Was it a difficult read?

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

wow... i have never really thought about poker that way. I have always been a very logical person always choosing to do the rational things. With a few exceptions this forum is comprised of very good high stakes players... Yet nobody that post much here has been super succesful playing the highest stakes online (50/100+). I wonder how much of that is due to most of the players here started reading 2+2 when we were at the quarter tables.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good post, I thought about some of the same things when Paul Phillips mentioned this book in his blog

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo mentioned the same book to me. Unfortunately I haven't heard of it until today, but I'll put it right atop my list of books to read.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent post ZJ. I don't have anything to add right now.

Do you recommend the book? Was it a difficult read?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a relatively easy read.

Personally I found the book fascinating. It is basically about ways of applying psychology in order to succeed. A lot of it relates to self-help in a sense, achieving the results you want and all that nonsense, but it has a very strong scientific base.

The book is also great to help understand other people, and why they react the ways they do in different situations. Especially for social-business settings, the stuff in teh book is very helpful.

For a lot of the stuff in the book, I was thinknig, "that's interesting, but how can I apply that?" But after I was finished reading the book, I thought I had a much better understanding on how important psychology is to many different kinds of social situations.

So yes, I do recommend this book.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yet nobody that post much here has been super succesful playing the highest stakes online (50/100+).

[/ QUOTE ]

aba20, thebruiser500,

prob others. I know giftofgab used to post

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In Nl and Pl games math is important, but not nearly as useful as it is in Limit IMO(oviuosly).

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't agree with this. High stakes limit games, especially 50/100 and above play so incredibly differently from 10/20 and below. They get extremely more aggressive with players making extremely thin value bets and constant bluffs. If you don't have any hand reading skills, you will die in these games.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Wow, great post. As for me, I'm without doubt one of the "first" group, i.e the logical-intelligent guys.

First of all for those who don't know me, I've never played a A LOT of poker; I'm quite convinced that I have probably played less than anyone else. I came in contact with the game 1.5 years ago, and I have never played a lot like most players. Instead, I basically learnt the thinking processes of real high-stakes poker by sweating my friends for hours and hours (even before I even began to play at all myself), by discussion and most of all, by just thinking about the game a lot, and thinking about a lot of situations, and how people usually approach them, stuff like that. Thus, I've learned the game in a very academical way, and mostly on my own, not through a lot of trial and error and by havings lots of experience; I have less than most, but, without trying to sound like I'm bragging or anything, I just found myself learning the game very easy, I've always been strong in math, but I quickly realized, and this is basically I actually started watching 50/100 before I started playing like 2/4 myself, that potodds/making draws pays etc and stuff like that has very little to do with how you approach situations on higher stakes, and that actually thinking about how your opponent think is that much more crucial, I realized this after seeing my friends call big bets with inside straightdraws, only to hit a pair and on the end call down a bluff. I learned the game pretty much entirely backwards compared to everybody else I knew, and for some reason that worked way much better than anything else I could imagine. I initially read a few books, but quickly realized that most of them were pretty much [censored], at least for NL, and that they would NEVER be able to explain even remotely close to how the play of real high-stakes poker is working, and how the poker minds at these levels think. Since then I of course have been playing, but once again, not NEARLY as much as most others.

What this my whole "poker/self-eduction" has left me with is basically quite the opposite to how you seem to feel in a lot of situations ZJ; I very rarely use my subconscience and just go with feel; I feel nearly all my decisions are basic on logic and active processes made in my conscious mind, except when it is just not possible, like a few difficult situations that basically only occurs at the very highest tables between the very best players.

The hand samo posted earlier about calling an overbet with a pair of fours is such a hand where frequencies pretty much goes out the window, and Taylor Caby explained it when he said you just cannot beat Mahatma by changing frequencies and stuff, you just have to OUT-THINK him, and this is where the first point when my subconscious mind comes into play for me, I feel. Basically, when frequencies for calling and stuff like that cant be quantified, and are basically meaningless, when no ordinary logic is applicable and where no argument can be made mathemathically, that is where the subconscious takes over for me. I don't feel this happens often; most of the time I just make quick deductions from how the hand played out, our history etc and most likely find the best play, or the best range of plays, and just use that, of course, I feel GOOD about taking this decisions as well, so I'm not struggling against some subconscious-pull that wants me to do something else. I think in most cases, if you just approach the problem at hand in the right way, you can often find the correct play by conscious reasoning, but there are some situations, like the two I mentioned above (i.e samos hand and battling mahatmas overbets, how often you should call, when you should call etc), where you just basically cannot even explain to yourself why a call feels correct or not.

I think, in those situations, the subconscious intelligence that ZJ is talking about is made clear.

I mean, I'm only thinking consciously in more difficult situations; most of the situations that occur in poker has been entered into my subconscious mind as well, and are just routine, I know them to be wrong and I don't have to explain it to myself, it goes by routine; this goes for the vast majority of situations and poker, and that is basically why I've never liked grinding; to learn all these fairly common situations took me very little time, and since these situations make up like 97% of our decisions during a session, that is how I simply cannot motivate me either, except for money that is. I think this is also why a lot of people burn out, by making nearly all decisions just routinem, which they become by entering your unconscious mind, you get less and less intellectual stimulance out of playing.

Edit: Just realized I pretty much made no apparent point at all in what I wrote, lol, I guess I just felt like writing a bit and got inspired by this really great read, and a little bit how it related to me.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

I completely forgot about this moment until just now. The subconscious mind strikes again!

Roughly two years ago, I was sitting in my dorm at Maryland, and my friend Justin Simpson was watching me multi-table $200+15 SNGs. I was telling him some of my thought processes, and on one hand, something came out of my mouth, and I had no clue where it came from.

It was a hand during the first blind level (relatively deep stacks), and we were on the river. He checked to me, and I said out loud, "Does he fold tens if I bet here? Nah." I checked behind with my no-pair, and he took the pot with his tens.

What struck me as odd, was that I wasn't concentrating on the hand at all. I was looking at other tables and explaining stuff to Justin while this hand was going on. Despite that, I somehow knew he had TT.

I kind of shrugged that situation off. In hindsight, I wish I would have really stopped to think about how I came up with my opponent's hand. I would probably be a better player for it today.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker? Part 2
 

Hi Justin,

Good post. I just want to comment on this:

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However, these poor fundamentals [exhibited by the "feel" players] are often overshadowed by expert hand-reading skills that allow these players to do well in high stakes games.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just that, IMO. It also can help them that until these fundamental flaws are well-understood by their good opponents, the flaws make them unpredictable in a way that can be profitable. I recall a post a while back about 2 spots where H@ll called giant amounts of his stack with 53 (suited, I think), clear mistakes. He got tremendously lucky in those pots, I think, drawing out. However, there have to have been other situations where he'd get into a spot with a hand far weaker than his skilled opponent would ever believe he could hold, given the prior action, and thus could successfully bluff his way out. To H@ll (or whoever), this could just be a consequence of having "luckily learned" that he could draw profitably with many hands that are clearly losers in reality.

Additionally, it's a tilt trigger for many logical players to see a player who "knows better" get lucky when making an obviously horrible play. So, the non-logical players benefit from the ways that their opponents incorrectly adjust to the idiosyncracies that were part of the "lucky learning" process.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

I couldnt even pass a college algebra class (freshman year) I did very poor on the ACT, and have 1.8 GPA but somehow i do good at poker IDK.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker? Part 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Additionally, it's a tilt trigger for many logical players to see a player who "knows better" get lucky when making an obviously horrible play. So, the non-logical players benefit from the ways that their opponents incorrectly adjust to the idiosyncracies that were part of the "lucky learning" process.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, this can't be emphasised enough. One of my favorite things to do (usually when i'm drunk) is sit down in a donkfest 2-5NL game and go nuts for a while. I'll do crazy stuff like make it $100 straight PF every pot for a few orbits. I then back off a little and just limp in and call every single pot and play well post flop. It's amazing how badly the 2-5 opponents adjust to this. I act like a fool for 15 minutes and they try to give me their money for hours afterwards. They do crazy stuff like get all their money with 3rd pair against me when it's clear that i'm folding most flops. These aren't horrible players and they know how to play ABC poker but they have no idea how to adjust to somebody playing over the top

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Contrary to what many will say, there is no truely random number generator. Many sites use player input such as mouse movements to determine a random seed. I will state that it is my opinion that one's unconscious mind knows what's coming. I can't tell you how many times I have been all in, in a tourney with WAY the best of it and I can predict with a great deal of accuracy the method with which I will get screwed, I can call it out "runnner runner flush" and bam there it is.

-Blazman

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very nice post. Does anyone else do this when faced with a tough decision? I go to each of my other tables and deal with whats going on there, maybe pop up my poker tracker browser, anything to distract myeslf from consciously thinking about the hand. Then when my timer is almost done I go back and find the answer to my decision is in my head. I agree 100%, I think the unconscious mind is a much better decision maker in poker than the conscious mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do the exact same thing. I've thought about why I do that but could never figure it out. Justin's explanation makes a lot of sense. Nice post.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker? Part 2
 

ZJ,

I think your post can be distilled into this:

--
A lot of players who don't have great logic/math skills are very smart people who are good at identifying patterns and quickly (either consciously or subconsciously) processing large amounts of information. These players may not know why they know something, but they know when they are ahead or behind (and how their opponents are likely to react to their actions) and act accordingly.
--

I'm pretty sure if you compared winners online and live, you would find them skewed higher towards the logic/math side among the online group than among the live group, because there are less non-logic/math elements to go by in making decisions.

The top players are all very good at both sides of this (that doesn't mean that they all necessarily calculate equities or do the math or even understand why, sometimes they just have a good enough feel for equities such that they know more or less how much money needs to be in the middle to make a call good).

The type of mistake the too-much-math player makes is simple. He often makes lots of bad calls because he's "getting too good a price" when that is actually complete BS based on the narrow range that any good reader would put his opponent on. Or, he misses out on opportunities because he can't realize that a certain guy bluff-raises-allin anytime you bet half-pot and instead worries about betting enough so he "gives him a bad price" or whatever.

However, guys like the type you describe can make mistakes for the opposite reason. One big mistake I've seen guys like this make is there's a lot of action and their opponent puts in the last raise. The instinct player now correctly puts his opponent on his exact hand and knows he is far behind, so folds. Except that based on the amount of equity he has in the pot, he should have called.

That's why being good at both types of thinking is important to be really good.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker? Part 2
 

ZJ,

Also, I think the more experience people have playing live, the less valuable they will consider your post to be.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I couldnt even pass a college algebra class (freshman year) I did very poor on the ACT, and have 1.8 GPA but somehow i do good at poker IDK.

[/ QUOTE ]

you possess what ZJ is talking about.

you were lucky in learning and indeed had the opportunity to further your learning process to where it is now. reading that 17y/o poster from the other forum talk about how he knew he was going to be killing poker in short order is a testament to that. you felt you had a grasp of some part of the game you couldn't explain. it happens to be a supremely important part: hand reading and a gut feeling that is correct a large amount of the time based on the information collected and internalized by your subconcsious mind. it is extremely hard for a solely logical player to "understand" this at its basest level. at least that is what ive taken away from ZJ's post.

so while you come accross as an arrogant prick, which you do, you have internalized important aspects in poker in an order that has allowed your subconscious mind to take over in many spots that are crucial to success at the limits you play.

as a result, you are one of the people with whom id love to play a session at yoru place. ive done this w/ some great players and always learn. but they tend to have learned the game like i have. ive never done it w/ a player like yoruself.

Barron

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

ZJ,

good post man.

i'll bring this up one last time and then im done...i'll do so b/c it still boggles the mind. i dont understand how somebody as logical and intelligent as you appear to be could possibly conclude that what you did was appropirate. and the statement you provided afterwards? just wow. ok, now that that's outta the way:

what you put up here is very valuable and i appreciate the thought and time you put into it. im going to have to play one table soon and really try to see what i do and why in more depth than i normally do. ive been reared a limit player but have played NL a good deal and have been successful. all of that success though is a result of the process you describe. im logical and fairly intelligent and learned, again, as you described.

when i broke through the higher limits (which was costly at first for sure) i realized i was able to do what you described (saying hands outloud w/o thinking about how i was doing it so much). i dont have as much time to play poker but i think your post has made me really want to delve into my own learning process and i feel that in and of itself is valuable.

so thank you for posting this.

Barron

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker? Part 2
 

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ZJ,

Also, I think the more successful experience people have playing live, the less valuable they will consider your post to be.

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FYP

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

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Very nice post. Does anyone else do this when faced with a tough decision? I go to each of my other tables and deal with whats going on there, maybe pop up my poker tracker browser, anything to distract myeslf from consciously thinking about the hand. Then when my timer is almost done I go back and find the answer to my decision is in my head. I agree 100%, I think the unconscious mind is a much better decision maker in poker than the conscious mind.

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i strongly recommend against this. take your time to think back through the hand and action on each street, you are missing information

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

Dcifr,

"as a result, you are one of the people with whom id love to play a session at yoru place."

Queer.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker? Part 2
 

"i'll bring this up one last time and then im done...i'll do so b/c it still boggles the mind. i dont understand how somebody as logical and intelligent as you appear to be could possibly conclude that what you did was appropirate. and the statement you provided afterwards? just wow. ok, now that that's outta the way:"

DCIFRTHS, this has been adressed ad nauseam, it boggles MY mind that you feel the need to bring it up again.

EDIT: dcfirsths, don't respond to this point it will hijack ZJ's thread.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

i think bruiser is right here...though i must admit i do this (subconsciously) from time to time...not sure if this helped in those hands or not, i'll try and keep track of it next time i do it.

Re: How Do Non-Rational Players Succeed in Poker?
 

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Very nice post. Does anyone else do this when faced with a tough decision? I go to each of my other tables and deal with whats going on there, maybe pop up my poker tracker browser, anything to distract myeslf from consciously thinking about the hand. Then when my timer is almost done I go back and find the answer to my decision is in my head. I agree 100%, I think the unconscious mind is a much better decision maker in poker than the conscious mind.

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i strongly recommend against this. take your time to think back through the hand and action on each street, you are missing information

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