(60) TT overpair in EP
 

Looking for general strategy PF and post here.
Only read is that I know SB is a heavy loser.

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

Hero (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1480)
Button (t1530)
SB (t1490)
BB (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is in UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero calls t20, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="red">MP3 raises to t60</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, Button calls t60, SB calls t50, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, Hero calls t40

Flop: (t260) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero...

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

i'd raise preflop. in this case i'd bet 180 on flop.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

Preflop looks fine, I'm playing medium pairs for set value in EP early.

Postflop, a bet looks blindingly obvious (3/4 pot or so), and evaulate from there. Just don't go broke unimproved.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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Preflop looks fine, I'm playing medium pairs for set value in EP early.

Postflop, a bet looks blindingly obvious (3/4 pot or so), and evaulate from there. Just don't go broke unimproved.

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You would raise JJ there preflop, though, right?

I bet 200 and they all folded. If I had gotten raised by a pre-flop caller (not the original raiser), what's your plan? I think I'm folding for sure against the original raiser.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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Preflop looks fine, I'm playing medium pairs for set value in EP early.

Postflop, a bet looks blindingly obvious (3/4 pot or so), and evaulate from there. Just don't go broke unimproved.

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You would raise JJ there preflop, though, right?

I bet 200 and they all folded. If I had gotten raised by a pre-flop caller (not the original raiser), what's your plan? I think I'm folding for sure against the original raiser.

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I don't know, ask nuggetz and bigt instead, they are obviously the best players on the forum.

P.S. Generally raise JJ and read-dependent on what to do vs. a raise post-flop, but like I said, don't go broke.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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I don't know, ask nuggetz and bigt instead, they are obviously the best players on the forum.

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Whoa, where did this come from, Pineapple? I hope it's not something I said [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

edit: nm, saw the other post. I think that big downswing of yours is getting to you...buck up happy camper, and turn that frown upside down [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

Preflop is cool. Looks like it's the 2nd hand of the tourney. I do prefer a limp then, though I'd often raise this to 80 as well.

I'm leading flop for about what you did, but I hate these spots. If we don't take it down here we are in awfully tought spots on the next two streets. Very few turns feel safe and there is a chance we are already crushed.

Given your read, however, I'd be delighted to get AI vs the SB here. Otherwise I'm reluctant to stack off unimproved.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

Bet 3/4 into the raiser and reevalute from there. If he raises, fold. If he flat calls, then you have to put him on a hand range (isnt poker fun!)

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

bet flop. i like a shutdown if he calls flop.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

I call preflop. I dont like reraising with TT to play it out of position.

I would bet something like 160 - 200. You are most likely ahead, there are a lot of bad cards that can leave you guessing if you give a free card and I dont really think I want to try a checkraise here because all you have is one pair. I'd rather take the pot down here (and/or get some info) than bloating it with what could be a 2nd best hand.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

I hate the pre-flop limp with TT. UTG raises get a small respect bonus anyway so I'd raise to 40-60 just to define my hand. I think in general it is simpler to play good but not great hands early in tournaments with raises rather than limps. Cold calls and 3-bets are much more meaningful when they follow an UTG raise.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

I think all of this talk about PF UTG is sort of silly and is a matter of preference and also a matter of your early game post-flop atyle and how disciplined, and frankly, how good you are.

As an arbitrary line, and I admit it is arbitrary, I would limp TT and raise JJ...but these are just personal preferences and it depends on the table (but how well do we know a table at L1?) So, I liked you PF play and I think betting the flop is pretty mandatory.

I know I havent said anything new here per-se, but I was moved to write this because of all of the forum chatter about "what the 'right' move is with JJ/TT PF UTG"...I just don't get it. Neither is a mistake...I prefer raising JJ and sometimes TT, but it doesn't make that huge a difference and also, buy-in is hugely relevant here. When people are throwing their stacks at you at low BIs when they CAll your TT pf raise with A7 and hit a 7, then raising is good. At a 60, this is not the case usually, so at least tt is a good limp there.

If you have notes that three guys behind you at a 60 tend to be loose donk spewers, then a raise might be good.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

if you guys are going to play TT for set value by limping it in ep, then continue to play it that way on the flop. i'm check calling the flop, maybe leading a safe turn or something, but once i've limped TT in ep I've committed myself to keeping the pot small oop when I flop an overpair.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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if you guys are going to play TT for set value by limping it in ep, then continue to play it that way on the flop. i'm check calling the flop, maybe leading a safe turn or something, but once i've limped TT in ep I've committed myself to keeping the pot small oop when I flop an overpair.

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Generally this is correct, but if you only have 1 or 2 callers and you get a flop like OP's, then why not bet? Of course, if you're calling a PF raise after your limp, then it gets tricky, but I think betting is better then Cring and and also better then check folding on OP's flop here.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

I don't like betting into the preflop raiser here at all. We don't have a monster. What do we do if we are raised or called by the preflop raiser? Fold? Check-fold turn? Do we bet with any two cards we limped with here? I am checking here if I limped preflop. Basicly what durron said. Check and see what happens, probably call but it depends on what button and SB does as well. I have no idea why everyone loves betting into the preflop raiser in a multiway pot here.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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I don't like betting into the preflop raiser here at all. We don't have a monster. What do we do if we are raised or called by the preflop raiser? Fold? Check-fold turn? Do we bet with any two cards we limped with here? I am checking here if I limped preflop. Basicly what durron said. Check and see what happens, probably call but it depends on what button and SB does as well. I have no idea why everyone loves betting into the preflop raiser in a multiway pot here.

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If you're going to treat this hand strictly as a "no-set, no bet" type hand, then you are correct. Then again, if you're going to think about taking a check-call approach where you have an over-pair to the board, then betting is better then check-calling and it is much cheaper to find out where you're at.

Again, if "no-set, no-bet" then be weak-tight a$$ and check-fold.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

i think by playing TT UTG only for set value you lose the value gained by playing raised pots postflop vs. idiots who will call your UTG raise light with hands like A8 and K8. you may be OOP most of the time, but i still think it's better raising.

who knows, maybe it doesn't make much a difference longterm. also you guys are right about being consistent with play in this hand. i guess if he limps preflop then calls a raise, he has to shut down to some postflop aggression without a set.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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Then again, if you're going to think about taking a check-call approach where you have an over-pair to the board, then betting is better then check-calling and it is much cheaper to find out where you're at.

Again, if "no-set, no-bet" then be weak-tight a$$ and check-fold.

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If you don't want to play this hand cautiously, raise preflop. It's that simple. Also betting might make the hand easier to play since you can fold to a raise from the PF raiser, but then again you might just as well have any two cards here. Also you let your opponent play perfectly and you don't get a c-bet out of whiffed overcards. Betting feels pretty close to plain bad for me. Check call, see what happens on the turn. If he fires again, play poker. Probably fold unless he is very two barrel happy.

By leading out into the preflop raiser here in a multiway pot we are showing real strength, we are repping much more strength than we actually have. That makes the hand easy to play since we are basicly bluffing with a marginal made hand, but is not the way to get value out of our hand.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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If you're going to treat this hand strictly as a "no-set, no bet" type hand, then you are correct. Then again, if you're going to think about taking a check-call approach where you have an over-pair to the board, then betting is better then check-calling and it is much cheaper to find out where you're at.

Again, if "no-set, no-bet" then be weak-tight a$$ and check-fold.

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most people aren't firing 3 barrels here with AK. You can call the flop, call the turn, and probably fold river if an ace doesn't hit.

You fold the best hand / call with a worse hand some of the time but honestly that's the price you pay for trying to play TT in an unraised pot.

Let's say you raise preflop, get the same 1 caller who would have limped, and now a guy raises. His range is obviously much tighter and you have a much better idea of what his hand is.

Also, check call flop, lead turn and fold to a raise is a pretty good way to find out whether he has an overpair bigger than yours.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

i would lead flop. the pfr will be hard-pressed to do anything but fold if he doesn't have you beat with so many people left to act (sb is a likely check-raiser). you're sort of letting him play perfectly, but sometimes that's still the best choice, and sometimes he will be dumb and call with 77.

if the pfr plays then i shut down. i'd be willing to get it in against one of the others though.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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i would lead flop. the pfr will be hard-pressed to do anything but fold if he doesn't have you beat with so many people left to act (sb is a likely check-raiser). you're sort of letting him play perfectly, but sometimes that's still the best choice, and sometimes he will be dumb and call with 77.

if the pfr plays then i shut down. i'd be willing to get it in against one of the others though.

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Are you kidding me? I'm very worried about the SB having me beat if he puts more chips in this pot

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

I would raise preflop. However it doesn't matter that much. Pooh's post about preflop is very good.

Since I limped preflop I check this flop and reevalute when it comes back around.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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Also, check call flop, lead turn and fold to a raise is a pretty good way to find out whether he has an overpair bigger than yours.

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Not to ignore the rest of what you said, but this seems to contradict "the cheap way" approach you're advocating. Check calling and leading is not going to be cheap and you're finding out (maybe) if he has a bigger overpair at a much higher price. At L1 I want to keep my losses small and not go deep figuring out where I'm at. I think a lot of the time, AK will flat call and they are already making a mistake by doing that, and if they fold, great!

If we're talking about maxing value and then talking about being lost to a PF raiser, I want to mitigate between these two...IOW, know right away what kind of strength I am dealing with, but take down a moderate pot a lot of the time. For L1 this is a great way to mitigate bewteen risk and reward on a hand where you're either WAWB.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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Then again, if you're going to think about taking a check-call approach where you have an over-pair to the board, then betting is better then check-calling and it is much cheaper to find out where you're at.

Again, if "no-set, no-bet" then be weak-tight a$$ and check-fold.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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If you don't want to play this hand cautiously, raise preflop. It's that simple. Also betting might make the hand easier to play since you can fold to a raise from the PF raiser, but then again you might just as well have any two cards here. Also you let your opponent play perfectly and you don't get a c-bet out of whiffed overcards. Betting feels pretty close to plain bad for me. Check call, see what happens on the turn. If he fires again, play poker. Probably fold unless he is very two barrel happy.

By leading out into the preflop raiser here in a multiway pot we are showing real strength, we are repping much more strength than we actually have. That makes the hand easy to play since we are basicly bluffing with a marginal made hand, but is not the way to get value out of our hand.

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Check-call and checking turn is another good line, I agree. But 3 way, I think leading is better...if HU, I like your line. Does that make any sense?

Also, I agree that since you limped you are missing c-Bets...I just don't want to have to play this hand down passively and I usually don't have any idea as to who is "two-barrel" happy and who isn't, so that isnt helpful.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

TT is very grey as people have said...id limp UTG but perhaps sitting in UTG+1 id open for a raise. as played preflop i think its fine.

does no one think a hand like A8, XcXc, or 67 gives us action if we lead this flop? not only do i think they will if they are in the least bit aggro, but i think that overall theyll do it often enough that you want to lead the flop even after playing passively preflop.... this is obviously read dependent/table dependent but i still think that leading is fine regardless of whether you limp or raise PF.

also for those saying "no set no bet", i think most people take the approach of "no set/overpair, no bet"...so there is certainly a bit of overpair value to be had with a hand like this, and i think playing 100% (literally) for set value is not optimal.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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i would lead flop. the pfr will be hard-pressed to do anything but fold if he doesn't have you beat with so many people left to act (sb is a likely check-raiser). you're sort of letting him play perfectly, but sometimes that's still the best choice, and sometimes he will be dumb and call with 77.

if the pfr plays then i shut down. i'd be willing to get it in against one of the others though.

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Are you kidding me? I'm very worried about the SB having me beat if he puts more chips in this pot

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yeah, i'm not saying i'm psyched about it, but i think you see draws/99/8x/worse pairs significantly more often than you see 22/55/88.

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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Check-call and checking turn is another good line, I agree. But 3 way, I think leading is better...if HU, I like your line. Does that make any sense?

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No, I think the opposite actually

Also, AK is not a WAWB hand here, 6 outs is too many imo to say WA

Re: (60) TT overpair in EP
 

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Check-call and checking turn is another good line, I agree. But 3 way, I think leading is better...if HU, I like your line. Does that make any sense?

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No, I think the opposite actually

Also, AK is not a WAWB hand here, 6 outs is too many imo to say WA

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i knew you'd say thaT. 75% with 2 to come is fine especially when you know to cut and run.