check the flop, call down.
 

UTG is a LAGtard, very aggressive pre and post flop, the BB is super passive call station.

30/60 Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Joe Tall is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Joe Tall 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Joe Tall checks.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls, BB folds.

River: (6.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

1) Happy birthday
2) Why no river raise?

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) Happy birthday
2) Why no river raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

ace is easiest card in the deck. what are you doing if it blanks? or a jack or ten.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why no river raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
honestly

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

I would have no trouble calling a reraise on the river vs the nittiest of nits. I might even cap vs some opponents.

So raise that river.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

I'd definately bet the flop, I'd for sure raise the river.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet the flop, I'd raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

JT,

Do you know annything about his capping standards preflop? Your description seems like he caps every hand that has you beat execpt maybe 99. I can't wait to hear your reason for not popping the river because I can't think of one.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

I dont get it.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

i've been getting into the habit of raising the turn in situations like these.
edit: sometimes at least

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

I bet the flop and raise river about every time.
The river seem really really easy and I´d probably raise it too on a blank.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

I like giving BB enough rope to call the turn. I think you get a call enough from LAGtard to make raising the river here the best play.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

would the super passive calling station call 2 on the turn with a K, 9, or gutshot (67, 78, 68, TJ, TQ, JQ)?

Is it possible super passive calling station has an ace (he's obviously not folding an ace)?

Are there any hands that UTG might bet/call the turn and call the river with that might check the river if you and the other guy call?

I would bet the flop and raise the turn here (which gives you some idea of my answers to those questions).

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd definately bet the flop, I'd for sure raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I wanted votes, I would have made a poll. Can you tell me why you would bet the flop and break down his hand range for getting paid off on the river, thanks.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
would the super passive calling station call 2 on the turn with a K, 9, or gutshot (67, 78, 68, TJ, TQ, JQ)?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I say super-passive but such player was a tighter type than loose passive.

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible super passive calling station has an ace (he's obviously not folding an ace)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the chances of him having an Ace are slim.

[ QUOTE ]
Are there any hands that UTG might bet/call the turn and call the river with that might check the river if you and the other guy call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, all the hands you listed in the first question about the call station.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the flop and raise the turn here

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you tell me why you would bet the flop and break down his hand range for getting paid off on the river, thanks.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the flop and raise river about every time.
The river seem really really easy and I´d probably raise it too on a blank.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trix, my good friend, you are a better poster than this. I didn't want votes, I want reasons behind your vote. Drop some science, please.

Hope things are well,
Joe

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

i think raising the turn could trick villain into 3-bet bluffing with QJ or could get a loose call down by a pocket pair or kings, also he may be 3-betting an ace. donno villain well enough to give you any kind of mathematical science on his hand range, but if he is a lag i don't think he would give you credit for the ace if you raised the turn.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
ace is easiest card in the deck. what are you doing if it blanks? or a jack or ten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
ace is easiest card in the deck. what are you doing if it blanks? or a jack or ten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question and I wasn't sure how to answer it but such a card likely his both of my opponent hand ranges. Getting 5~:1, with unclean Ace-outs made up by some dirty-Queen outs, and the unlikleyhood of the BB c/ring, I'm calling there too.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is a LAGtard, very aggressive pre and post flop, the BB is super passive call station.

30/60 Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Joe Tall is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Joe Tall 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Joe Tall checks.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls, BB folds.

River: (6.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
joe tall,

i won't get into the flop action, but i would bet.

on the river, the key is that BB folded. you say UTG is a LAGtard and VERY aggressive pre and post flop. this is pretty key information.

i won't bother listing hands that fold the river, because they don't matter. you have probably made as much as you can from those hands by checking the flop and allowing him to bluff the big streets. i will only look at hands that can call or 3-bet the river, because those are the ones that dictate whether or not you should raise.

i will also assume he never 3-bets a worse hand but you will always call a 3-bet. so if he has A9 or KQ, i will assume he won't 3-bet. this is conservative in calling's favor.

hands that call (hand totals might be slightly off):

A2s+, A6o+ (not including AK/AQ because of preflop). this is 53 hands.

K9+ minus AK. this is 39 hands.

total hands that call = 92

hands that beat you and 3-bet you:

55 and JT, and JT is a stretch. but discounted 0%, these hands combine for a total 19 hands.

given my ranges (total of 111 hands), and assuming you always lose 2 against better hands and you always only win 1 from worse hands, the EV of raising the river is:

(92/111)(1) - (19/111)(2) = 0.49

so everyone suggesting the river raise was in fact suggesting to take another half a big bet from this player.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

joe,
i'd be tempted to bet the flop, not because i necessarily have the best hand, but because i like to keep pressure on jackasses. if he has 77, he is gonna hate life. i want LAGS to hate life against me. that ais, i don;t think checking is all bad. were you betting the flop if BB got lost preflop and you were HU with the spazz?

on the river: La Gasolina.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
were you betting the flop if BB got lost preflop and you were HU with the spazz?

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt.

[ QUOTE ]
i'd be tempted to bet the flop, not because i necessarily have the best hand, but because i like to keep pressure on jackasses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was tempted but I still think it's a check even more so in retrospect as not many hands fold and getting c/r here but a LAGtard is not something I wanted to visit.

RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]

joe tall,

i won't get into the flop action, but i would bet.

on the river, the key is that BB folded. you say UTG is a LAGtard and VERY aggressive pre and post flop. this is pretty key information.

i won't bother listing hands that fold the river, because they don't matter. you have probably made as much as you can from those hands by checking the flop and allowing him to bluff the big streets. i will only look at hands that can call or 3-bet the river, because those are the ones that dictate whether or not you should raise.

i will also assume he never 3-bets a worse hand but you will always call a 3-bet. so if he has A9 or KQ, i will assume he won't 3-bet. this is conservative in calling's favor.

hands that call (hand totals might be slightly off):

A2s+, A6o+ (not including AK/AQ because of preflop). this is 53 hands.

K9+ minus AK. this is 39 hands.

total hands that call = 92

hands that beat you and 3-bet you:

55 and JT, and JT is a stretch. but discounted 0%, these hands combine for a total 19 hands.

given my ranges (total of 111 hands), and assuming you always lose 2 against better hands and you always only win 1 from worse hands, the EV of raising the river is:

(92/111)(1) - (19/111)(2) = 0.49

so everyone suggesting the river raise was in fact suggesting to take another half a big bet from this player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome response bro! What I ended up doing was putting him on one of two things, a stone called bluff, or a hand that beats me.

30/60 Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Joe Tall is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Joe Tall 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Joe Tall checks.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls, BB folds.

River: (6.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Results below:
UTG has 5h 4h (one pair, fives).
Joe Tall has Ac Qc (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Joe Tall wins 8.75 BB.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can you tell me why you would bet the flop and break down his hand range for getting paid off on the river, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont really understand what you are asking in the second part of the question. I recommended a turn raise.

I'll do my best to answer the first part though. I normally bet here, but I am very open to being convinced that it is wrong. This is tough to do, but I tried putting these guys on some preflop hand ranges:

Board: Kc 9h 5d

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 25.2311 % 23.72% 01.51% { AcQc }
Hand 2 (UTG): 35.9083 % 34.65% 01.25% { TT-33, AQs-A2s, K3s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T9s, 98s, AQo-A2o, K6o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 3 (BB): 38.8606 % 37.69% 01.17% { JJ-22, A2s+, K7s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, A8o+, K9o+, QTo+, J9o+, T9o }

So if this range is reasonable, it wouldn't be a bet for value. This would be especially true if we would have to fold to a checkrasie because this would prevent us from realizing our equity (I would actually call a checkrasie here b/c of your 2 backdoor draws).

So, if the bet is not for value, it should confer other advantages. Here are some possible advantages:

1) You can take a free card on the turn if you wish.
2) It might prevent us from folding the best hand if someone decides to donk the turn after we showed weakness on the flop.
3) If we do have the best hand, we can give worse hands the option of making an incorrect call or a correct fold. If they make a correct fold, our chances of winning the pot improve.

Overall, I feel like the advantages make a bet correct here, but these factors are really hard to quantify.

As for the turn, you say he will not call 2 cold with a gutshot or pair. If he won't, I guess calling is ok. I haven't met many "super passive calling stations" who play that tightly postflop though.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

The river reasoning is pretty basic and assumed that you allready knew the arguments for raising and calling.
Basicly, you just give up too much value by calling as this guy probably doesn´t read hands that well and plays too loose-aggr, that was your read right ?
He also didn´t cap preflop, so the hand I´m most worried about is JT. You also dont have to worry much about a 3bet as it will often be KQ which you beat, so you dont need to be ahead as often as in a situation where his 3bet range is around the spot where calling it gets neutral or slighthly -EV.

I dont really expect my flop bet to fold better hands very often against players like that, but it probably does happen sometimes depending on their mood and your image. They will however often call with hands they shouldn´t call with even in a pot of this size and even hands that are behind and correct to call are better off seeing the turn for free.
Betting also avoids leaking info and often gets you to the end cheaper, 3 bets vs 4. Sure, sometimes it will cost you 5 or 6, but still think it´s worth it overall.

I´m doing pretty good, though not playing that much poker lately. Been working on improving other aspects of my life instead really.

How is SoCal treating you ?

-Jens

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
(I would actually call a checkrasie here b/c of your 2 backdoor draws).

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive me for the basic question but we have about 1.5 outs for the BDFD and .5 out for the restricted BDSD. That's about 2 outs total. So we need 22:1 to call the flop.

9.5 SB PF, 3-5 SB flop dependin if the passive comes with.

that is 12.5:1 or 14.5:1

That is a far cry from the 22:1 we need. I guess if you give us 1 out for the A then we have enough of a reason to call if the passive comes with. Sure he's a lag but if the passive calls will he really checkraise lightly?

HU we simply don't have the odds to call with the BDFD and so we have to fold. Yes, it's more likely hes doing it lightly but we have far less odds. Our ace simply won't supply the 1.5 outs required to call. Is my reasoning right there or am I off on this one?

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

i think our ace is good a lot. utg is lagtard so our jack could be good too

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]

Awesome response bro! What I ended up doing was putting him on one of two things, a stone called bluff, or a hand that beats me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this. What hand were you putting him on that beats you? why can't he have a worse 2 pair? Or just an ace?

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

raise the river sir ty

Re: RESULTS
 

The river is an easy raise, I dont see how you can rule out any made hand that doesn´t beat you. He probably puts you on 77 or something like that when you call the turn, so when you raise the river he will often call out of confusion. Heck, he probably sometimes tiltcall the 54 he held if you give him the chance of making the mistake.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

Checking the flop is ok, I think, depends on what I want to do later in the hand (equity is low and you'll basically never win for 1 bet on that flop, especially with the calling station in there, a K8X flop would be different).

So my guess is that on the turn you start off all "Bingo Bango" and such but the LAGtard bets into you and you're like "what the hell, that should be a scary card for that dude!". If this what a nitty guy you'd probably be correct to just call down, but the people I think about when I think "aggro LAGtard" have no fear of sticking money in with the worst of it, they fear missing value with the best of it. So this could easily just be a naked ace. Without spiking your kicker it might have been pretty close, but even though I think it's closer than most people seem to think I would also pop it on the end.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is a LAGtard, very aggressive pre and post flop, the BB is super passive call station.

30/60 Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Joe Tall is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Joe Tall 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Joe Tall checks.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls, BB folds.

River: (6.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand not raising the river. And I don't see a problem with raising the turn so BB could pay twice for this 4-5 outer draw.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

like others have said i would raise the river even without hitting the Q, having hit it its criminal not to raise.

-Brad

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
like others have said i would raise the river even without hitting the Q, having hit it its criminal not to raise.

-Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. With the action up to the turn, you have JJ/TT and LAGTards are suspicious enough to call a river raise with any hand that beats them.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't get this. What hand were you putting him on that beats you? why can't he have a worse 2 pair? Or just an ace?

[/ QUOTE ]

My read was a bluff that is folding and I wanted to inflict some showdown-shame or specifically AK. The river is a raise, yes. I would like to see you comments about the flop.

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise the river sir ty

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no....you aren't turning into one of those lamo-troll-fyp-votey-posters that killed twoplustwo, add some substance!

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise the river sir ty

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no....you aren't turning into one of those lamo-troll-fyp-votey-posters that killed twoplustwo, add some substance!

[/ QUOTE ] You are ahead of 2/3 of his betting range so raise and call 1 back b/c he is a lagtard

Re: check the flop, call down.
 

I tried to come up with something more in depth but all I can really think to say is RAISE THE RIVER TY PLZ.

I bet he would have paid you off with 54 too.