Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

I personally have been trying to stick to real BR management lately, playing with 15 full buy-in to NL ring games online, but every time I try with my small $400-$1000 BR I get bored of the games I am supposed to be playing in and move up. Then of course I get one bad run and im broke.

Is it even worth it to try to play within my weak bankroll, or should I keep trying the go broke or get rich quick method until I do finally get a real manageable bankroll?

Also if I am doing the build of fast or go broke method, what should I play? $20-40 buyin tournys on stars or just cash games?


ps- I'm a much better LIVE cash game player than online cash game player, but my only good cash game near me is $100/$200 buyin 2/5NL and I don't have near enough cash for that game.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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every time I try with my small $400-$1000 BR I get bored of the games I am supposed to be playing in and move up.

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You've got too much gamble in you to be successful at poker.

Fix it or quit.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

First class ticket to Busto please....

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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every time I try with my small $400-$1000 BR I get bored of the games I am supposed to be playing in and move up.

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You've got too much gamble in you to be successful at poker.

Fix it or quit.

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I don't like to gamble that much, its just playing .10/.25, or .25/.50 NL is just not fun at all.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

Change games.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

You have a decision to make. You need to decide if playing above your bankroll and probably your skill level, and losing a lot of money is more fun than plugging away at NL$25 (because with that bankroll you have no business at NL$50) and learning the game properly. Bankroll recommendations are partially to ensure you don't go broke due to variance but also to ensure you can actually beat a level before moving to the next.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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You have a decision to make. You need to decide if playing above your bankroll and probably your skill level, and losing a lot of money is more fun than plugging away at NL$25 (because with that bankroll you have no business at NL$50) and learning the game properly. Bankroll recommendations are partially to ensure you don't go broke due to variance but also to ensure you can actually beat a level before moving to the next.

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Well I consider my skill level where I can beat the game consistently at .5/1NL online and 2/5NL Live. But of course I know I have no where near the bankroll for either. What im really thinking about doing here is just forgetting about griding up at low levels and just saving up around $2000 to play with. All of my friends who are now playing around 5-10 and 2/5 Live games won most of their bankrolls through tourny's instead of griding up from low levels.

Also the 2/5Nl live game near me is the softest, weakest game I've pretty much ever played in, so If i had about $3k-$4k to work with I could really beat that game bad. Its pretty much like playing .10/.25 online but with $5 chips instead. Its mostly old men with lots of money, so if you got the bankroll and live in Southern Cali you should play this game.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

I'm guess what I'm saying is that you don't "know" that you can consistently beat the online $.50/1 game or $2/$5 live game until you've actually done it over a large number of hands. Anyone can win some money or go on a hot streak. I've seen the worst player at a table beat the crud out of several good players by getting lucky. If I had a dime for the number of people I know who "know" they are a good player but just need to prove it...

It is extremely risky to bring a $3000-$4000 bankroll to play $2/$5 NL. Your chances of losing it are really good regardless of your skill level. Obviously, you have little regard for experienced players telling you to build your bankroll properly but you'll probably just have to learn the hard way. Good luck

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

your right I don't have conclusive proof that I can beat a higher level than .25/.50 online, because I've never had enough to play higher than that with real bankroll management.. My question to you is, what did you start out with, and what are you at right now in terms of Bankroll?

Did you start with like $500 online and work your way up? Or did you start with more?

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

When I was referring to bankroll advice I was not referring to my particular situation, although I have followed it successfully. I was referring to just about any professional poker player who understands variance.

Personally, I started with $50 and now have $1500. I don't play for the money as much as the fun but someday I'll be playing the big games with a $50 investment and almost no chance of going broke. I don't move up until I earn 30 buy-ins at a limit.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

this might be contrary to the conventional advice, but I would borrow and play the stakes that you want to play at (being reasonable of course). when you play on a short bankroll you tend to put yourself through more emotional stress needlessly, win or lose. but at the same time, i can relate to needing to play big enough so that its interesting.

also, there is nothing wrong with buying in shorter.

if you can't borrow though, you simply need to exert some discipline and grind your way up. And hopefully when you do have your desired several thousand dollar bankroll you will have the willpower to stay at that level for a while and be sure that you can grind out a nice earn for yourself, rather than continually wanting to move up to bigger games when you are not properly rolled for it.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

OP respect the game or get a proper bankroll.

Of course it seems you dont beat the lower games and you dont beat the bigger games, different excuses for why of course.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

OP: My advice is to learn to beat the small stakes games and then move up. Yes, small bankrolls are worth it. Believe me when I say that you will respect your bankroll more by earning it the hard way.

You may scoff at my advice. You may say, "I know how to beat those limits, I just get bored." The fact of the matter is, if you are losing because you are getting bored, you haven't learned to beat that level.

Poker is all about patience, and the most worthy adversary I've ever had to conquer at the poker table is boredom.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

I have a fairly large bankroll (for me) after some purchases and things. You will rarely see me play regularly much above 100NL/PL. More typically I'll just play 25 games. I've sat as high as 5000 NL and 200/400 on a short roll, so I have gambled.

I still consider myself a gambler, but one who has seen the dark side. Be several thousand in the hole and see how you feel. I kept gambling and playing on a short roll. Fortunately for me, I ran good for a while and got in the black. If I would have just ground up the levels, I feel that I'd be playing at a much higher level than I am currently. I know that I like to gamble on occassion though. Because of this, I don't play high for more than a session/buy-in. When I feel like gambling it's normally an amount within 'normal' bankroll standards if I lose. And I have an expectation that the money can easily be gone.

So figure out where you want to be. On one hand, you can gamble, playing outside of your roll and probably start a pretty bad cycle (or maybe you run hot for a while). On the other, you can take the advice of many people who have gone before that have been in some rough spots because of bad roll management.

In no way to I claim to be a great player, just one who has been in a deep hole (for myself) and wish it upon no one (even the biggest pricks in the world).

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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I try with my small $400-$1000 BR I get bored of the games

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Wow, I cannot imagine considering $1000 a small bankroll I have spent months building up from $50 to just under $400. I definitely understand the boredom of playing for a couple of cents, but those times were important for my development. I would far prefer to lose a few dollars to misplaying than blowing a few hundred.

Just my two cents,

Leo

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

Hi Fast Eddy,

Thanks for this post. I also started with $50 and am following a similar structure where I only move up after I have 300bb for the limit I want to play at. Its slow, and I seems like I have been stuck at $0.5/$1 forever, but in the end I know that I will eventually grind enough to move up. Your post is definitely encouraging as someone who has done exactly what I want to do.

Also for the OP, is there is a reason you don't do tourneys? You could play a $6 or $11 tourney, and if you win get $1k+. I am not encouraging this, but you mentioned your friends used this system, so why haven't you followed their lead?

Cheers,

Leo

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

If you are a decent player it shouldn't take too long to move up from 25NL. 3 or 4 table 25NL until you have a little over 1k, then move up to 50NL and do the same until you have 2-3k and just keep moving up when you have 20-30 buyins for each new level. If you want to be a winner you have to have patience.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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I personally have been trying to stick to real BR management lately, playing with 15 full buy-in to NL ring games online, but every time I try with my small $400-$1000 BR I get bored of the games I am supposed to be playing in and move up. Then of course I get one bad run and im broke.

Is it even worth it to try to play within my weak bankroll, or should I keep trying the go broke or get rich quick method until I do finally get a real manageable bankroll?

Also if I am doing the build of fast or go broke method, what should I play? $20-40 buyin tournys on stars or just cash games?


ps- I'm a much better LIVE cash game player than online cash game player, but my only good cash game near me is $100/$200 buyin 2/5NL and I don't have near enough cash for that game.

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If you're good and play a decent number of hands (5K a week or so), it should only take you like 2 weeks to dig your way out of the micros. Just suck it up and grind it out. If you're not good enough to grind up your own bankroll for the higher limits, you're not going to be good enough to beat the higher limits.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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It is extremely risky to bring a $3000-$4000 bankroll to play $2/$5 NL. Your chances of losing it are really good regardless of your skill level. Obviously, you have little regard for experienced players telling you to build your bankroll properly but you'll probably just have to learn the hard way. Good luck

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Bear in mind that the typical brick-and-mortar $2-$5 NLHE game is a lot easier to beat than the equivalent-sized game online. If OP can beat .10-.25 online, he's in great shape for this game, assuming he has either an adequate bankroll (more than about 20 buyins) or he has enough disposable income from his day job to replenish losses.

(I say this over and over again, and no one seems to notice: A cash flow of $25 per week in disposable income is the equivalent of a bankroll of $25,000 cash on hand.)

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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If you are a decent player it shouldn't take too long to move up from 25NL. 3 or 4 table 25NL until you have a little over 1k, then move up to 50NL and do the same until you have 2-3k and just keep moving up when you have 20-30 buyins for each new level. If you want to be a winner you have to have patience.

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Ya it really shouldnt take you longer than a month if you are a winning 25NL or 50NL player. Like everyone else said, just stick with it. If you dont have the discipline you are going to go busto the first big downswing you run into.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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Bear in mind that the typical brick-and-mortar $2-$5 NLHE game is a lot easier to beat than the equivalent-sized game online.

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It depends on the rake structure. I've only played 2/4NL live once and it felt like the $12/hr was a little high. My friend later went back and calculated it to be something like 5-8 PTBB/100. I dont think I would plan on being a live NL player unless I was playing 5/10.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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(I say this over and over again, and no one seems to notice: A cash flow of $25 per week in disposable income is the equivalent of a bankroll of $25,000 cash on hand.)

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So as long as someone has $25/wk to blow, he should be comfortable in a 25/50 limit game?

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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(I say this over and over again, and no one seems to notice: A cash flow of $25 per week in disposable income is the equivalent of a bankroll of $25,000 cash on hand.)

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So as long as someone has $25/wk to blow, he should be comfortable in a 25/50 limit game?

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If he's a winning player, yes. Going busto is not a catastrophe when one knows that one's bankroll replaces itself.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

If losing your BR wouldn't be a big deal and you can easily replace it, then play as big as you want. BR management is way overrated on here for people who play poker as a hobby and have other income.

Obviously I'm not advocating taking your $1000 BR and putting it all in a 5/10NL game, but there is nothing wrong with sitting at a $100 or $200 game if losing isn't going to hurt very much. If you would rather play live, then there is nothing wrong with buying into the 2/5 game short and hoping to get lucky. Many of the big names in poker built their BR by trying to push themselves to move up, often going "broke" over and over when they moved up until they finally broke through and succeeded.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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So as long as someone has $25/wk to blow, he should be comfortable in a 25/50 limit game?

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If he's a winning player, yes.

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Please explain how that happens, in detail. Pretend I'm a N00B with $25/wk and give me a plan for playing $25/$50.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

I started with 50 about two years and have made +50k, I play a pathetic amount too.

If you cant grind 25NL, you lack the discipline and patience to be a good player. If you play a bunch you can double or triple your bankroll in a month. That means you could be playing .5/1 in 2 months with just a reasonable amount of time invested(2-3 hours a day).

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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If losing your BR wouldn't be a big deal and you can easily replace it, then play as big as you want.


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No -- play as big as you have the money for. This is my issue with Alan's claim; if he had come out and said $25/wk is equivalent to a $1000 bankroll, fine, I'll agree. If you drop 25 BBs, fine, take a week or two off and you're back.

I don't understand how $25/wk can be equivalent to a $25,000 bankroll when you have to wait a year to save up a buyin for a game you could just sit in happily bankrolled with the $25k.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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Is it even worth it to try to play within my weak bankroll?

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Yes.

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...or should I keep trying the go broke or get rich quick method until I do finally get a real manageable bankroll?

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Absolutely not.

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...if I am doing the build-up-fast-or-go-broke method, what should I play: $20-40 buyin tournys on stars or just cash games?

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Cash games.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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If losing your BR wouldn't be a big deal and you can easily replace it, then play as big as you want.


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No -- play as big as you have the money for. This is my issue with Alan's claim; if he had come out and said $25/wk is equivalent to a $1000 bankroll, fine, I'll agree. If you drop 25 BBs, fine, take a week or two off and you're back.

I don't understand how $25/wk can be equivalent to a $25,000 bankroll when you have to wait a year to save up a buyin for a game you could just sit in happily bankrolled with the $25k.

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One way to do it is to borrow the money for your bankroll, and use the $25/week disposable cash flow to pay off the loan.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

It is worth it to build you BR yourself from what you already have.

The amount you have to start with is more than decent. Remenber that you have to see money at the table in terms of blinds related to your BR. So it doesn't matter how much money it really is.

When someone plays high stakes, do you think each time he bets he would remind himself : "wow that's the price of a nice car i'm thin value betting here", or "should I bluff at the pot or buy a house with that 300000$"?

So use the same thinking process playing low stakes. Play as close a possible of a buy in being 5% of your BR if you want to move up quickly (it includes moving up and moving down at times).

Poker asks for a lot of practice. You have to experience downswings followed by bad play and deal with them. So I'll rather do that staying a little longer at each level.

Another argument for moving up slowly, is that once you are done with a level, there is very little chance you'll move down because of your roll being too short or your poker developpement not as advanced as you thought( I think that's the worst that could happen to you, at what level would you restart then and with what kind of confidence on your play?).

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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One way to do it is to borrow the money for your bankroll, and use the $25/week disposable cash flow to pay off the loan.

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It would be interesting to hear you argue your case to a bank.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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One way to do it is to borrow the money for your bankroll, and use the $25/week disposable cash flow to pay off the loan.

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It would be interesting to hear you argue your case to a bank.

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First off im suprised this thread is still going lol..but anyways first off..

I will never ever ever borrow for my bankroll, thats my one rule about poker. I will never go in debt to play.

Second...Here is my new plan for my BR:

Right now ive made my way back from from a big steam off of money I did a few days ago from $200 to $650. Since I really don't like online poker much, I'm going to deposit $200 in stars and just play cheap $25NL and $5 tourny's. Then hopefully I can take my other $400 to live play and just work my way up with that and not interchange either of the Bankrolls. The live money I have will only be for live play and the online money will only be for live play. Hopefully this will work better than just having all my money online where im tempted to move up to .5/1NL or 1/2NL

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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Bear in mind that the typical brick-and-mortar $2-$5 NLHE game is a lot easier to beat than the equivalent-sized game online. If OP can beat .10-.25 online, he's in great shape for this game, assuming he has either an adequate bankroll (more than about 20 buyins) or he has enough disposable income from his day job to replenish losses.


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This is what I am trying to get at...the 2/5 game near me has some of the biggest fish I've ever played with..I actually find the $25NL online to be harder than this game. I almost feel like I should just save up $2000 over the course of a couple of months and jump into that game.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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Since I really don't like online poker much

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If you arent trying to go pro bankroll management really isnt that important. Just give yourself an amount that you can add to you bankroll every week. Depending on how much you are willing to spend on poker it can be $50-$200/wk which is pretty reasonable for entertainment purposes. Dont worry about it and just enjoy the game.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

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[ QUOTE ]

Bear in mind that the typical brick-and-mortar $2-$5 NLHE game is a lot easier to beat than the equivalent-sized game online. If OP can beat .10-.25 online, he's in great shape for this game, assuming he has either an adequate bankroll (more than about 20 buyins) or he has enough disposable income from his day job to replenish losses.


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This is what I am trying to get at...the 2/5 game near me has some of the biggest fish I've ever played with..I actually find the $25NL online to be harder than this game. I almost feel like I should just save up $2000 over the course of a couple of months and jump into that game.

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Don't you think you'll become a much better player if you beat the NL50 online first? An if you beat this 2/5 live game what would be your next step if you don't learn much doing so? Then you'll want to play 2/4 online, do you think you'll be prepared for that?

A good and fast way to build a BR is to play lots of SnGs. The problem with that is that soon or later you'll have to learn how to play in a ring game. And your roll will make you start at a level you'll have a hard time to beat.

IMO you received good advices on this thread from people taking the time to share their own experience (they obviously had success with it).

It is up to you now if you want to stick to your first position and listen to people saying: "sure you should borrow" or " you should birng money from outside poker, find a job to support your gambling".

The time you spend at the lower limits is never waisted if you keep working on your game. Once you'll start climbing you'll go faster through certain stakes where the level of the opposition doesn't improve.

will the money you'll be doing at NL100 today instead of NL25 or 50 really matter compare to what you'll do in a few month if you learn the game correctly and avoid going busto or have to step down too many times?

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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One way to do it is to borrow the money for your bankroll, and use the $25/week disposable cash flow to pay off the loan.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be interesting to hear you argue your case to a bank.

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First off im suprised this thread is still going lol..but anyways first off..

I will never ever ever borrow for my bankroll, thats my one rule about poker. I will never go in debt to play.

Second...Here is my new plan for my BR:

Right now ive made my way back from from a big steam off of money I did a few days ago from $200 to $650. Since I really don't like online poker much, I'm going to deposit $200 in stars and just play cheap $25NL and $5 tourny's. Then hopefully I can take my other $400 to live play and just work my way up with that and not interchange either of the Bankrolls. The live money I have will only be for live play and the online money will only be for live play. Hopefully this will work better than just having all my money online where im tempted to move up to .5/1NL or 1/2NL

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Sorry Invulsive, I missed that post before writing my last answer. I was answering to your last post. You sound already much more reasonable, I hope I didn't sound too harsh. It is my opinion and I am just trying to help, and maybe this can benefit someone.

Good luck.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

This is fine if you make good money and a profit playing poker isn't necessary or expected. But, for someone that's young and strapped for cash, suggesting taking a shot at the NL $2/$5 is very bad advice. He could go through $2000 in no time even if he's a proven winner at that level.

If you make $100,000/yr, losing $2000 playing poker means nothing. If you make <$20,000, it's disasterous.

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

The main reason most bankroll requirements are so high is because of the possibility of an extended downswing.

It's probably over the top to take out a loan so you can play poker, but you definitely don't need as much as you would if you couldn't replace your poker money. I only need about 120BB to play a level in limit cash because if I hit a fluke downswing it's not a big deal for me to get it back through temporarily moving down + bolstering my bankroll with what little disposable income I have. Technically you could play with as little as 25BB if you single-table and don't mind being taken out of commission until "next paycheck".

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

I think small bankrolls are very frustrating because the low stakes games tend to have a higher variance..

Re: Are Small Bankrolls Even Worth It??
 

I've played most forms of poker in most varieties with various bankrolls. I started live in 2000 with $500 and built it up to use as a reasonable second income. I then "catiously" deposited $100 online in 2002 to see what it was all about. Now I'm at where many reasonable poker players are: Playing 2/4 - 3/6 FL and $100 - $200 NL with a bankroll ranging from 2K to 4K (I'm staying in this area until I'm firmly on my feet financially). I'm still playing for half hobby, half income. But, here's a few things that helped me build my BR along the way.

#1: Bonuses. Once you get to the $1000 mark for your BR, you have to take advantage of bonuses, either sign-up or reload. Party, empire, paradise, fulltilt, interpoker and stars are the biggest ones out there that are clearable at the smallish stakes ($50 NL and .50-1 FL). Take them on 1 at a time, and within a few months you should be at $2000. Then, you can do all the monthlies and reloads when they come around.

#2 Learn to Multitable. Some people might disagree, but I think multitabling is a big key to success at lower limits and building your bankroll. Work your way up to 4 tables at your normal limit (or maybe 1 lower). After a few weeks of play, you'll start to see ways you can move up to more tables (get tweakui for xp). Playing 8-12 tables is a reasonable feat and a great way to drive the standard plays (mostly for FL) into your head. You'll definetly reach a breaking point, but I doubt most players are playing 8 times worse with 8 tables going. Even if you only make half as much per table, you are still coming out ahead. Tackle it with caution, but I strongly recommend giving it a shot. As a side note, decent .50-1 FL players can make a fairly easy $8 per hour 8 tabling.

#3 Sit and Go's. Lots of people rule out this form of poker, but it's a great way to build money on a small bankroll. The standard "biggish" downswing is about 20 buy-ins, which means you can play $10 SNGs with a $300-$400 or so BR. An extra bonus is that the 1-table tournament forum is great. There are great poker and mathematical minds that will help keep your eyes on the prize. This is also a great way to learn multitabling, as SNGs are probably the easiest form to multitable. Even the slowest of players shouldn't have much trouble 4 tabling staggered SNGs.

#4 Pokertracker. If you don't have this, get it. It's hard to explain, but it's just hard to imagine how you can live without it. There are extra bonuses, like tracking your opponents' play, and using headsup displays, but most importantly, it gives you a visual, analytical, and truthful way to look at your game. It takes out the guessing of "how much did i win today?", or "am i profitable?", or "can I move up?", or "what's my hourly wage/win rate?". It puts all this information clearly at your fingertips and your BR will thank you over and over again.

Those were the big 4 that I remember over the past few years, I am by no means the biggest pro, but I feel like I'm at that level I was looking up to a few years ago. It's a comfort zone of being able to handle downswings, having an extra grand in your pocket on most months, and being responsible with your hard-earned money.