100/200 A4o on the button
 

100/200 6 max on pokerstars. The big blind is an unknown to me, so far hasnt' done anything weird in one trip around the table.
Folded to me, I raise A4o on the button. Big blind calls.

Flop 258 rainbow.

check, I bet, bb checkraises.

3 bet or call? Is this a spot where you want to vary your play? Am I making a move on the turn?

Mostly I'm wondering if one particular line has a lot of EV here, or if the various lines you can take are pretty close and you just want to mix up your play.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
100/200 6 max on pokerstars. The big blind is an unknown to me, so far hasnt' done anything weird in one trip around the table.
Folded to me, I raise A4o on the button. Big blind calls.

Flop 258 rainbow.

check, I bet, bb checkraises.

3 bet or call? Is this a spot where you want to vary your play? Am I making a move on the turn?

Mostly I'm wondering if one particular line has a lot of EV here, or if the various lines you can take are pretty close and you just want to mix up your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an absurdly common situation, since it's a prime re-steal situation for BB since he assumes you are more likely than not to have big cards and the board is so low and ragged. So here's the anaylsis, I think:

He has: (a) air, (b) a pair (or better), (c) some flavor of str8 draw.

If he has (a), there's no point in raising at all, since you want him to keep firing.

If he has (b), then most opponents are folding no matter what, so there's no point in raising unless you hit your A. 3-betting the flop is an option, but only if you're committed to getting to showdown and you think it'll buy you a free card, which often it won't in the 1/2 game, at least on Party.

If he has (c), then I think the best approach is to call the flop raise and then raise the turn if any card other than a 3,4,6,7, or 9 hits. If re-raised I think you have to fold barring a really strong read.

Barring a particular read, then, my default is to call the flop raise and then raise the turn (and check through the river unimproved) if the turn is a T or higher. If any of the scare cards (in (c), above) hit the turn and BB bets, I usually fold.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

This analysis didn't help me much, mostly it just said stuff I already knew. I mean he has nothing, a pair, or a draw. No kidding?

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
This analysis didn't help me much, mostly it just said stuff I already knew. I mean he has nothing, a pair, or a draw. No kidding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you're welcome. Obviously the other people who responded provided much greater insights. You think there's some magic bullet? You need to play poker. And not be an ass.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

I agree with Hock. I dont really see whats so special about this hand. Most players defend with such a wide range that that flop hits as many gutshots as any other somewhat coordinated flop.

You already know that there are more pair hands than pure draw hands that raise that flop. And I doubt any pair folds ever on such a board. So I like call/call/fold most of the time. If the board pairs or something obv you call river too.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

Cmon paluka that was pretty damn ridiculous. The guy tried to help and gave you about as good of analysys as you're going to get around here and you come and rip him?

I hope your just having a really bad day cause that was pretty rude.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
This analysis didn't help me much, mostly it just said stuff I already knew. I mean he has nothing, a pair, or a draw. No kidding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, there's no magic formula to playing ace high.

Jerk.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

You will essentially never make him fold a better hand, so any further aggression on your part is very likely a mistake. The size of the board makes the credibility of a flop 3-bet near zero. In my opinion the best line is to use your gutshot as an escort to the river and then make your decision of whether to call or fold based on your assessment of his likelihood to both have a busted draw and fire three barrels with it given the turn and river cards.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

I gather that more than one person is this thread is not having a great day.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

"If he has (a), there's no point in raising at all, since you want him to keep firing."

Hero has no pair either; why should he let his opponent catch a pair to beat him cheaply?

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

Alright I'm sorry I wasn't really having a bad day I was jsut busy at work and didn't realize how much of a prick I was in that post. I apoligize.
I stand by my opinion that while his post was lengthy, it didn't really do much but state the obvious.
I realize this is a fairly typical hand, but when I face a typical situation and I'm still not sure what my best line is, that leaves me with 2 options:

1) The lines I can take are very close, and I should liekly just do something reasonable, vary my play, and adjust to this particular opponent.

2) One line is actually usually better than the others, and maybe someone on the boards can help me realize this.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
"If he has (a), there's no point in raising at all, since you want him to keep firing."

Hero has no pair either; why should he let his opponent catch a pair to beat him cheaply?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a point I'm concerned about too.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
You will essentially never make him fold a better hand, so any further aggression on your part is very likely a mistake. The size of the board makes the credibility of a flop 3-bet near zero. In my opinion the best line is to use your gutshot as an escort to the river and then make your decision of whether to call or fold based on your assessment of his likelihood to both have a busted draw and fire three barrels with it given the turn and river cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think a free card play has any merit? Too obvious?

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
why should he let his opponent catch a pair to beat him cheaply?

[/ QUOTE ]

He won't catch it cheaply as long as he keeps betting.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why should he let his opponent catch a pair to beat him cheaply?

[/ QUOTE ]

He won't catch it cheaply as long as he keeps betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

We also have to worry that our opponent with no pair has a better ace than us. I agree making a pair fold in this spot is tough, but how often can we make a better ace fold?

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

Just for the fun of it, lets play a game. Lets assume I am the villain in the BB. Lets also assume that if I had 77-AA, I would 3bet preflop even though many times I will call with these hands in this spot.

When I checkraise that flop here is my total range:

22,A2,K2s,Q2s,55,A5,53s,54s,65s,75s,85s,Q5s,K5,86s ,87,98,T8,J8,Q8,K8,A8,66,76,43s,64s,97s,96s,74s,A3 . Lets also say I would checkraise the flop with T9s if I had a backdoor flush draw. I also ignored those times we have the same hand with A4.

Once I checkraise the flop you are an 3.1-1 underdog against my range. What this means is you atleast have to get to the river, how you should get to the river is certainly up for debate and I know thats the major topic of this thread. If I were playing against myself, I would probably take the boring line of call the flop checkraise, call the turn, and fold the river. I will now explain why I would fold the river against me.

Here are the 4 common showdown lines you can take here:

1) 3bet flop, bet turn, check river
2) 3bet flop, check turn, call river
3) call flop, call turn, call river
4) call flop, raise turn, check river

I would take none of these lines against myself becuz I would not feel a need to showdown against me. The reason this is so is becuz if a good player is still in this hand by the river, I will not bluff even close to the theoretically optimal frequency in this spot becuz I dont think the good player will be folding very often at this point. This is a very dry board, and if the good player is still in the hand on the river I will assume he is showing down very often. So this means no matter which line the hero takes, If I bet the river, the hero can fold knowing he doesnt have a profitable call.

So none of those 4 showdown lines should be taken against me. Line #4 should only be taken if the hero thinks he has some FE from better hands. Since im a fish, line #4 is bad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Although I began this post by saying that against me I would call the flop, call the turn and fold the river. I guess it turns out that this is not the optimal line against me. I suppose 3betting the flop, checking the turn and folding to a river bet would be the best line. Against me this is probably the optimal line becuz If a good player takes this line against me on this dry board, I again will assume hes showing down, which means I will not bluff the river at an optimal rate.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]

We also have to worry that our opponent with no pair has a better ace than us. I agree making a pair fold in this spot is tough, but how often can we make a better ace fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion we make a better Ace fold almost never. My point is that--after his checkraise--we have way the worst of it if more than one bet per street goes in unless we improve. Retaking the initiative:

1) Opens us up to punishment from better hands and those that are currently worse but pass us

2) Gains us nothing when he has a worse hand unless he won't fire three barrels with it

3) Exposes us to the risk of getting knocked off of the best hand if he shows further aggression with a draw unless we are willing to make an expensive calldown

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he has (b), then most opponents are folding no matter what, so there's no point in raising unless you hit your A. 3-betting the flop is an option, but only if you're committed to getting to showdown and you think it'll buy you a free card, which often it won't in the 1/2 game, at least on Party.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure it is actually true that you should only 3 bet the flop if you are committed to a showdown.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just for the fun of it, lets play a game. Lets assume I am the villain in the BB. Lets also assume that if I had 77-AA, I would 3bet preflop even though many times I will call with these hands in this spot.

When I checkraise that flop here is my total range:

22,A2,K2s,Q2s,55,A5,53s,54s,65s,75s,85s,Q5s,K5,86s ,87,98,T8,J8,Q8,K8,A8,66,76,43s,64s,97s,96s,74s,A3 . Lets also say I would checkraise the flop with T9s if I had a backdoor flush draw. I also ignored those times we have the same hand with A4.

Once I checkraise the flop you are an 3.1-1 underdog against my range. What this means is you atleast have to get to the river, how you should get to the river is certainly up for debate and I know thats the major topic of this thread. If I were playing against myself, I would probably take the boring line of call the flop checkraise, call the turn, and fold the river. I will now explain why I would fold the river against me.

Here are the 4 common showdown lines you can take here:

1) 3bet flop, bet turn, check river
2) 3bet flop, check turn, call river
3) call flop, call turn, call river
4) call flop, raise turn, check river

I would take none of these lines against myself becuz I would not feel a need to showdown against me. The reason this is so is becuz if a good player is still in this hand by the river, I will not bluff even close to the theoretically optimal frequency in this spot becuz I dont think the good player will be folding very often at this point. This is a very dry board, and if the good player is still in the hand on the river I will assume he is showing down very often. So this means no matter which line the hero takes, If I bet the river, the hero can fold knowing he doesnt have a profitable call.

So none of those 4 showdown lines should be taken against me. Line #4 should only be taken if the hero thinks he has some FE from better hands. Since im a fish, line #4 is bad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Although I began this post by saying that against me I would call the flop, call the turn and fold the river. I guess it turns out that this is not the optimal line against me. I suppose 3betting the flop, checking the turn and folding to a river bet would be the best line. Against me this is probably the optimal line becuz If a good player takes this line against me on this dry board, I again will assume hes showing down, which means I will not bluff the river at an optimal rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the kind of post I was looking for. But against typical players, don't you feel that the turn check induces a bluff from busted straight draw type hands and you should consider paying off river? Does that then make you want to change your strategy on the previous streets?

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

Ilovepoker,

That was an insanely good post. While most of it seems obvious, it gives away way too much info as to how to play spots like this vs. decent players. If people study that post, they will likely be able to play about a thousand times better in blind situations.
-James

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]


This is the kind of post I was looking for. But against typical players, don't you feel that the turn check induces a bluff from busted straight draw type hands and you should consider paying off river? Does that then make you want to change your strategy on the previous streets?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against the typical player, If I 3bet the flop and check the turn, it is almost always with the intention of calling the river assuming the turn and the river are relatively blank cards. So yes I am paying off the river very often If I take this line against the typical player. If im against an unknown/typical, more often than not I am taking the call flop, call turn re-evaluate river sequence. Basically the same idea as this statement:

Cartman's words: "In my opinion the best line is to use your gutshot as an escort to the river and then make your decision of whether to call or fold based on your assessment of his likelihood to both have a busted draw and fire three barrels with it given the turn and river cards."

For example: If we call the flop checkraise, and the turn is a Queen, and the villain bets again, and we call again, and the river is a Jack, notice that these are essentially two blank cards. What this means is all straight draws missed. If we assume the villain has a range close to mine, we are still roughly only a 3-1 underdog to have the best hand on the river. However, once the villain bets the river, naturally our underdog status changes for the worse, but my point is we should still be more inclined to call the river when the turn and river blanks off like this.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the kind of post I was looking for. But against typical players, don't you feel that the turn check induces a bluff from busted straight draw type hands and you should consider paying off river? Does that then make you want to change your strategy on the previous streets?

[/ QUOTE ]

It probably depends on the texture of the turn card. If it's a dangerous card like an 8 or a 7, I assume it's a defensive, let's-see-a-showdown check and I would probably not bluff if I was playing well. If it was something like a J, I'd find that really curious and might go ahead and bluff.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

With the gut shot in addition to the Ace out, I think the best play here is to keep your foot on the gas and 3 bet. You can reconsider what to do on the turn but if the turn is a paint, I bet again and hope to get yet another (different) paint on the river in which case I bluff again.

It's pretty difficult for the bb to call the river with a 5 or even an 8 when the board is 258JQ and you have bet every street (although ironically, I suspect that most guys would be more willing to call your river bet with Ace high than with 98 - I don't quite know why that phenomeneon occurs. I digress but it may have something to do with their thinking on the turn call - when they call with an 8 on teh turn, they are hoping to improve and are not psycholgically commiteed to a showdon but when they call with ace high, they are indeed psychologically committing themselves to a showdown whether or not they improve).

Without the gutshot draw on the flop, I think that any of the lines you have indicated are reasonably close and you should just mix it up. That other chap that James complimented had a very good post.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

in what games do people fold a 5 or an 8 here? Surely no online games I've ever played in.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
in what games do people fold a 5 or an 8 here? Surely no online games I've ever played in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why are the players at this stakes so often bluffing bad turn/river with stuff like A high or 5th pair if they know that nobody ever fold a 5 or 8 in that game ...

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in what games do people fold a 5 or an 8 here? Surely no online games I've ever played in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why are the players at this stakes so often bluffing bad turn/river with stuff like A high or 5th pair if they know that nobody ever fold a 5 or 8 in that game ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are some people here making tens of thousands of dollars from these games? Same reason.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

Well I'm not sure you will turn a profit calling the river with a pair of 5 when a good preflop raiser is 3 barreling a turned J and rivered Q. I'm sure, there is more good players than you think that are folding their pair of 5 on the river when the turn comes J and river comes Q vs a good player who is 3 barreling.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well I'm not sure you will turn a profit calling the river with a pair of 5 when a good preflop raiser is 3 barreling a turned J and rivered Q. I'm sure, there is more good players than you think that are folding their pair of 5 on the river when the turn comes J and river comes Q vs a good player who is 3 barreling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I don't disagree. Figuring out when to fire that 3rd barrel is a skill I haven't really mastered yet; there are times when I do fire and feel like an idiot for having done so, and there are times when the cards get flipped over and I'm almost sure that I could have won the hand with a follow-thru.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

I am not saying there are not good players who can make that fold. I am just saying that these good players probably are like 3% of the player pool. I also agree with Nate. Most people bluff waaaay too much considering that nobody folds anything ever. And the over aggression in these games makes these sort of calldowns a marginal mistake at worst.

EDIT: I guess I should say that I've played less than 10k hands at 100/200 so I guess it is possible that my comments don't apply to this limit. But with my limited experience at 100/200 and my extensive experience at 20/40 - 50/100 , I stand by my statements.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

I'm fairly sure bluffing A high is a losing play if the board winds up to be 358JQ, but I think a convincing argument could be made for bluffing K high there.
-James

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

also...one other thing is that if he has a typical BB defending range, he is much more likely to have 8x than he is to have 5x. And folding 8x is usually gonna be a mistake on most boards since an aggressive stealer could value bet a hand like A5 or K5 on the river. Also since he is on the button his range is wide and he could have a weaker 8x (if BB has, say, J8 it is possible that button has 78s or something).

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

All true but when it comes to calling on the river on a baord of 258JQ board, whether the bb is holding a 5 or an 8 makes just a miniscule difference in the bb's mind as to whether he should call the river bet. Surely, he is not going to think "I am calling with an 8 but not a 5 because the other guy might have an 8". He's thinking "geez, he 3 bet the flop on a board with no draw and then kept firing on both the turn and river. I beat a bluff and that's about it." Of course, if he knows his opponent is ultra gagressive, then his thinking could well be different.

In any event, I accept that the bb may well call. I would say that he might even probably call but IMO, he will fold it often enough to make a bluff pos ev for the button.

I think that a lot of guys (me included) are so used to being called down in these spots that we river bluff way less than we should be.

Also: If you are the button and are convinced that bluffing against a presumed 5 or 8 is a losing play, I sure as heck hope that you are also value betting an 8 (or better) on the river despite a jack and queen for turn and river cards on a regular basis.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
He's thinking "geez, he 3 bet the flop on a board with no draw and then kept firing on both the turn and river. I beat a bluff and that's about it."

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly my point. I also find myself not bluffing enough in that river spot since there is always that little voice telling me don't spew he will call anyway and find myself checking the river to be shown bottom pair or deuces. But I'm still confident that if I had bet the river in that specific spot (852JQ) that I would have turned a profit with that bet.

I think that 3 betting the flop allow you to take advantage of good cards on the turn and river that you could represent by 3 barreling. Since the board is almost drawless I think BB will have a hard time calling his bottom pair if the turn and/or river bring bad news (T+ cards). At the same time you can take free card on the turn if the board gets ugly.

I like a 3 bet.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm fairly sure bluffing A high is a losing play if the board winds up to be 358JQ, but I think a convincing argument could be made for bluffing K high there.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

If betting Ace high with that board on the river is a losing play I bet that K high is one too. Your A4 is not beating any ace he could have and I don't think he'd play K high that way very often.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

I like three-betting the flop here and either checking or betting the turn some fraction of the time each - you still may have the best hand and if you don't you'll probably get a free card (you could even check the turn and fold the river unimproved against some opponents, though they are somewhat rare IMO).

There's also been some discussion about bluffing in dry boards being less effective than bluffing on coordinated boards - this should not be the case. If there are semibluffing opportunities for your opponent for drawing hands, you should be more inclined to pound a hand like A-hi or something because you will get action and will be favored most of the time. In this hand, you actually have the draw (overcard and a gutshot), and since this might also be the best hand, I like playing it fast on the flop and taking it from there.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

How bout this -

If you are playing "weak" (in a relative sense) and missing:

call-call-call

If you are playing weak and hitting:

call and raise turn

If you are playing strong and missing:

call-call-fold

If you are playing strong and hitting:

3bet flop, take free turn, fold river.

(all folds assume unimproved)

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

"Flop 258 rainbow. -- check, I bet, bb checkraises."

I don't know how much of this applies to online but at brick-and-mortar high-stakes I almost never bet the flop when I'm last to act headsup without already knowing if I am going to fold, call, or raise if my opponent checkraises. In the situation you described, if I bet the flop and I get checkraised, I three-bet pretty much every time, usually before the other guy's chips stop moving.

Tommy

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm fairly sure bluffing A high is a losing play if the board winds up to be 358JQ, but I think a convincing argument could be made for bluffing K high there.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

If betting Ace high with that board on the river is a losing play I bet that K high is one too. Your A4 is not beating any ace he could have and I don't think he'd play K high that way very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am saying I think it's just about that close, imo.
-James

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Flop 258 rainbow. -- check, I bet, bb checkraises."

I don't know how much of this applies to online but at brick-and-mortar high-stakes I almost never bet the flop when I'm last to act headsup without already knowing if I am going to fold, call, or raise if my opponent checkraises. In the situation you described, if I bet the flop and I get checkraised, I three-bet pretty much every time, usually before the other guy's chips stop moving.

Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether you know what you're going to do or not doesn't change much of anything and I highly doubt you're ALWAYS one step ahead in thinking. You used to always talk about how you'd make plays having not decided what you're going to do on a later street, now you're saying that you absolutely know what you're going to do next if you get c/r on that flop. Great, you're thinking ahead, that's probably smart, but it surely doesn't add anything to the discussion to tell us taht you already know what you're going to do and that's it. I'm not trying to be overly critical as I usually love most of your posts, this one just doesn't fit in at all.

Re: 100/200 A4o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
This analysis didn't help me much, mostly it just said stuff I already knew. I mean he has nothing, a pair, or a draw. No kidding?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you can call, raise or fold. There is no absolute "best" play in this situation, it depends. The conservative play is to call, but if you think he is making a move on your or if you want to create an image of being tough to run over for example you can certainly deviate.

I mean questions like "I got XX and my opponent raised me, what shall I do?" cannot be answered with detailed analysis.