I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

I started playing at 3 PM and was busted out of my $500, belly full of seafood buffet, driving down the road, talking to the MRS on the cell by 6:05 PM.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

What Limit?

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

Started at $4-8 but got called to $10-20 after about 30 minutes. Won two small pots all evening. Good hole cards, miss the flop, flop a good draw, doesn't get there.

No bad beats, actually an amazing run of good starting cards, plenty of chasers so I had good odds. This is a situation where I should have brought more cash. I made a mistake leaving this game.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

No disrespect but it's [censored] like this that makes me never want to grow up.

On a different note I just got off the phone with that stripper who I took shopping. I'm so confused.

EDIT: Lots of stuff

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

so you lost 25 BB's in 2-3 hours?
That isn't much of a record.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
so you lost 25 BB's in 2-3 hours?
That isn't much of a record.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've done that in 3 orbits.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

Is for me, I am trying to play tighter. I have a positive expectation at Ceasar's IN $10-20 and usually come home with more cash than I started. It has been a long time since I went bust that quick.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is for me, I am trying to play tighter. I have a positive expectation at Ceasar's IN $10-20 and usually come home with more cash than I started. It has been a long time since I went bust that quick.

[/ QUOTE ]

going bust in a limit game is such a fundamental error that i can't believe it is even coming up.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

yes, steam has actually been lectured on this before as I recall. Perhaps hasn't broken that habit which I agree is a significant error.

I too have dropped 25+ BB's in less than an hour and assume pretty much everyone else has as well.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

this thread sucks

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

Going bust in a limit game is not a fundamental error for a recreational player. A recreational player says, "I have $X or X hours to play tonight and I will play until I run out of money or time."

That is just how it is for a recreational player.

If a professional player operated in this manner, it would be a terrible mistake.

If I was a professional player:
1. No way I show up with only 25 big bets.
2. No way I leave a game with that much action

I am a recreational player, if I lose too much money on Friday, I can't justify going to play O/8 on Tuesday.

If I run good on Friday, I buy the MRS a really good dinner or a small present so Poker stays in good graces with the MRS.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

"You suck at recreational poker."

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

"Your sample size is too small"

Tonight's results have absolutely no bearing on anything. the same guy that called a raise out of the small blind with 64o and stayed to make runner quads today will be there next Friday. He was there last Friday and the Friday before. He plays every hand and some Fridays he outdraws me on every hand and other Fridays he pays me off. I like my odds over the long term.

When I enter tonight's results in Statking I will still have less than 500 hours of live poker this year so my sample size is too small also.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
this thread sucks

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Word

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Going bust in a limit game is not a fundamental error for a recreational player. A recreational player says, "I have $X or X hours to play tonight and I will play until I run out of money or time."


[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't mean to sound snarky, but a good recreational player should only run out of time, patience, interest, motivation, etc...but never money.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

So, how was the seafood buffet?

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Going bust in a limit game is not a fundamental error for a recreational player. A recreational player says, "I have $X or X hours to play tonight and I will play until I run out of money or time."

That is just how it is for a recreational player.

If a professional player operated in this manner, it would be a terrible mistake.

If I was a professional player:
1. No way I show up with only 25 big bets.
2. No way I leave a game with that much action

I am a recreational player, if I lose too much money on Friday, I can't justify going to play O/8 on Tuesday.

If I run good on Friday, I buy the MRS a really good dinner or a small present so Poker stays in good graces with the MRS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please stop thinking like a recreational player, recreational players who think that way are long term losers, start thinking like us - while continuing your recreational status. Please stop spending your poker winnings on gifts for your wife, your don't ask her to give it all back when you lose do you? Please start keeping a bankroll. Please start showing up with more than 25 bets. Please stay in the game as long as it is good even if you touch the felt. Please realize that 3 hours of play is a slow day for some of us if it takes that long to go bust in the session (my record was 15 or so hands, beat that!). If your going bust that fast while playing smart, aggressive, edge pushing poker then that means the game must be absolutely amazing!

PS: You said so yourself earlier, I haven't steered you wrong yet... trust me on this one. Your #1 problem is mindset at this stage of your progression, start working on it!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
this thread sucks

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Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

nice post TT.

Using one's status as a 'recreational' player to justify one's negative EV aspects in their game just isn't a good idea.

Steam - it really wouldn't be that bad to leave after dropping 25BB's if that's what you wanted to do.
But you really should have 40 or more BB's on you even if you were to do this.

Sitting at the table with your last 3-5 BB's really hurts yourself.

So have $1k in your wallet, leave after you drop $500 or so if that makes you more comfortable, and keep 10 or more BB's on the table at all times. Really should be more than 10BB's of course, especially with unlimited raises when you make a monster.
But even just 10BB's would be a lot better than sitting there with 5 or fewer.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please stop spending your poker winnings on gifts for your wife, your don't ask her to give it all back when you lose do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to everything TT says except the above quote. He is single and …well he is single. (He doesn’t understand the what’s yours is ours, what’s mine is mine rule that one doesn’t learn until after one marries.) Other than that, I would trust his judgment. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please stop spending your poker winnings on gifts for your wife, your don't ask her to give it all back when you lose do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to everything TT says except the above quote. He is single and …well he is single. (He doesn’t understand the what’s yours is ours, what’s mine is mine rule that one doesn’t learn until after one marries.) Other than that, I would trust his judgment. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Buy her gifts, just not from winnings. Buy her gifts from the bankroll through periodic withdrawals. Think of your bankroll as a savings account.

PS: Single guys gotta spend more to get some play... at least you married guys got action built into the deal, even if you don't get any at least its the thought that counts!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

If I get no action it's the thought of action that counts?

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I get no action it's the thought of action that counts?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was your choice to get married, don't come crying to me after the fact [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

I'm not really sure I agree with TT about the whole bankroll issue. I don't understand how this would affect the win/loss rate of a recreational player.

Take my situation for example. After the bills are paid my wife and I split our money. I have about 500 a week to spend as I choose. I play 1-2 sessions of 3-6 a week since that's the only limit offered in my area.

Now why would it make a difference if I was going in with 200 of my $3000 bankroll rather then just 200 that I can afford to lose.

In the same way what does it matter if I spend my winnings from a night on books?

Obviously when you play like this it's more important to keep accurate records of your wins/losses to see if your a winning player. Other then that though I don't see what difference having 300BB's on hand really makes.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Now why would it make a difference if I was going in with 200 of my $3000 bankroll rather then just 200 that I can afford to lose.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't afford to lose all $3000 then your bankroll is not $3000.

You lose money by taking only $200 (or $500 in the case of OP) because the games in which you are likely to burn through that much money in a short period of time are your most profitable games. You will be in action with your $500 in a crappy rock garden of a game all day, while when you are in an ultra profitable loose game you may go BUSTO and be out of action, unable to part the idiots from their money.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so you lost 25 BB's in 2-3 hours?
That isn't much of a record.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've done that in 3 orbits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've lost that in one hand.

GoT

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Now why would it make a difference if I was going in with 200 of my $3000 bankroll rather then just 200 that I can afford to lose.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't afford to lose all $3000 then your bankroll is not $3000.

You lose money by taking only $200 (or $500 in the case of OP) because the games in which you are likely to burn through that much money in a short period of time are your most profitable games. You will be in action with your $500 in a crappy rock garden of a game all day, while when you are in an ultra profitable loose game you may go BUSTO and be out of action, unable to part the idiots from their money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I have to admit that having to leave after losing 25BB might cost you some value if the game is particularly juicy. At the same time there's always a juicy game somewhere. As recreational players you have the freedom to look at a huge fishpond of a table and say "eh, I'd rather go watch a movie".

While this may cause you to win less then you could I doubt it costs you so much in potential profit as to turn a winning player into a losing player.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

I have to think about this thread a little more but I am pretty sure that I am going to respectfully disagree.

I will concede that leaving a soft game after losing 25 Big Bets is a mistake from a poker perspective (I have already conceded that point earlier in this thread) but I am not certain it is a very big mistake from a life perspective.

If I was single and poker was all there was in the world then the mistake would be big by comparison. The really big mistake would be to play poker in a such a manner that the MRS becomes concerned or gets jealous of poker. Don't laugh about a wife getting jealous of an activity, they get jealous of sports on TV, they get jealous of golf, NASCAR, you name it, if I guy likes it, a woman is jealous of it.

I think it is important the the MRS understands that I am not going to lose so much in a evening that it impacts our standard of living. She would not understand and I would never get her to understand why after losing $500 putting another $500 in the game was a good idea. If the MRS ever gets scared that I might lose too much or gamble away the house, then home life around the Steamboatin household will deteriorate and that is the real -EV move.

Those same goofy guys that are willing to play 72o in middle posistion or call a raise with 64o from the big blind and chase runner runner draws will still be there next Friday. They are always there, I know most of them by name.

Allowing the MRS to beome overly concerned or damaging my relationship with her just to chase a few extra dollars of EV would be incredibly stupid.

There is one thing about 2+2 in general that I have never understood. If someone makes a post about a winning session, everyone says that the results of an individual session don't matter but if someone posts about one losing session, he is a donkey and sucks at poker. If it is supposed to be all one big game than an individual losing session shouldn't have any more impact on your win rate than an individual winning session.

The main reason I am not concerned about leaving this soft game is, because it is always soft. One poster said, I might have to grind for a long time before I found another game this soft. No, I just have to show up next Friday, the same guys will be playing the same way and the game will be just as swingy as it always is.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is important the the MRS understands that I am not going to lose so much in a evening that it impacts our standard of living. She would not understand and I would never get her to understand why after losing $500 putting another $500 in the game was a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't have a separate poker bankroll?

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it is important the the MRS understands that I am not going to lose so much in a evening that it impacts our standard of living. She would not understand and I would never get her to understand why after losing $500 putting another $500 in the game was a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't have a separate poker bankroll?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am 99.9999999% sure Steam doesn't have a separate bankroll, and I am at least 60% sure steam doesn't track his winnings and losses. His last response shows that he still doesn't get it, he is viewing the world from the wrong side of the glass, what else can we do/say to help him see the light?

Steam - do yourself a favor and give yourself a dedicated amount to start a bankroll and only play from within this bankroll. All winnings remain inside the bankroll so it can continue to grow. Since you were talking in the range of $500 I think its best that we start small and cross our fingers that you run good, put $3,000 aside as your dedicated poker money. This way if you lose a session your wife has nothing to complain about, it will never impact your standard of living. Conversely when you have a winning session she can be safe and secure in knowing that you have added padding to your roll so the next time you have a losing session it still won't affect your standard of living.

PS: It looks like everyone in this thread is on your side, we are all trying to help.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

I do not maintain a seperate bankroll, I have Statking and track my results religiously. I can tell you exactly how how many hours I have played at each level or location and I know exactly how much I am up or down at any given moment.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do not maintain a seperate bankroll, I have Statking and track my results religiously. I can tell you exactly how how many hours I have played at each level or location and I know exactly how much I am up or down at any given moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm happy to hear that you are tracking your results, as you can see from my previous post I wasn't so sure about that. But now lets discuss your bankroll. What level(s) are you currently playing? How many bets do you keep in your bankroll? Do you ever play poker from financial sources other than your bankroll? Is your bankroll kept in cash (I know you are a live player) or in a bank? If its in a bank, do you keep it in a separate bank account?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
if someone posts about one losing session, he is a donkey and sucks at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]


just posting that you had a losing session is not drawing any criticism at all.
In fact, many on here are stating that they have much worse downswings on a regular basis.

Some of the details you provided such as playing down to the felt with only 25 BB's are raising some eyebrows though because of how it is generally considered to be incorrect.


In fact, I've observed just the opposite of you.

Somebody, a new poster perhaps, comes on here and posts that they dropped 100BB's or something and they immediately get told that there's a lot of variance in poker and they should just 'hang in there'.
But most seem to offer such variance advice while just assuming that he is actually a good player which is a pretty strange thing to do imo.

If he's a new poster who we know nothing about, and we already know that most players do NOT win, then why would we assume he plays a winning game?

Sometimes a couple more predicatable details of how they play come to light and it THEN becomes obvious that the downswings are happening because he simply isn't good at poker.
But I'm always amazed at how much 2+2'ers just assume that he is a winning player just because he says he is. Most players say this about themselves. It means very little.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most players say this about themselves. It means very little.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point MB. In Steam's case we have over a years worth of experience with him to base on non-judgmental advice upon.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

I have had a separate bank account for years for poker, and it has avoided much conflict. My wife knows I'm serious about poker, I keep records, etc.

I have bought "gifts" though from my poker roll after a big withdraw. One nite I tried to talk the wife into going out with the kids for dinner (we don't eat out much) and she said "we don't really have a lot of money, we're savign for our vacation" and I just went to my shoe (where I keep my live play bankroll short term, grabbed a hundred and said "let's go, it's on my poker winnings"

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

I think I understand now and if I don't someone will jump in and let me know.

When I am concerned about maximizing my income, I don't play poker, I grab a suit out of the closest, pick up the phone and start dialing for dollars. The decision to go play poker is -EV from a purely income perspective. The greatest player in the world only makes 1-1.5 BB per hour so I agree to a pay cut when I decide to go play.

I am not a great player. I am a break even player at best. The +EV play is to stay home and sell a couple more houses. The problem is, if you don't have a hobby or a diversion you get burned out, so as long as poker is less expensive than owning a boat or having a golf addiction, then I am fine.

I believe this is why we always seem to be in disagreement because I have a different agenda. I don't view poker as a source of income. I enjoy playing, I enjoy studying poker and I enjoy the challenge of working on my game. If I had to chose between playing in a game that wasn't any fun where I had a small positive expectation or a game that was a lot of fun but I had a small minus expectation, I am choosing the fun game everytime.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I had to chose between playing in a game that wasn't any fun where I had a small positive expectation or a game that was a lot of fun but I had a small minus expectation, I am choosing the fun game everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

You my friend, need to learn to play craps. The funnest -EV game in the world. If you stay away from the bad bets, it's only slightly -EV.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I understand now and if I don't someone will jump in and let me know.

When I am concerned about maximizing my income, I don't play poker, I grab a suit out of the closest, pick up the phone and start dialing for dollars. The decision to go play poker is -EV from a purely income perspective. The greatest player in the world only makes 1-1.5 BB per hour so I agree to a pay cut when I decide to go play.

I am not a great player. I am a break even player at best. The +EV play is to stay home and sell a couple more houses. The problem is, if you don't have a hobby or a diversion you get burned out, so as long as poker is less expensive than owning a boat or having a golf addiction, then I am fine.

I believe this is why we always seem to be in disagreement because I have a different agenda. I don't view poker as a source of income. I enjoy playing, I enjoy studying poker and I enjoy the challenge of working on my game. If I had to chose between playing in a game that wasn't any fun where I had a small positive expectation or a game that was a lot of fun but I had a small minus expectation, I am choosing the fun game everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steam - I am a publisher by trade, and I am not a kid like many of your fellow 2+2'ers (I'm nearing 40). Poker is not a significant source of income for me either. I am a part time player, a recreational player like you are. But the difference is I think like a winner, while your thought process is how losers think and we are trying to help you break that pattern. I know its a Borg hive-like mentality, but it allows those of us that practice this thought process to be long term winners, not worry when losses occur, and feel positive that we will never have to dip into our personal savings to play a game that we all love to play.

Have you ever heard of Roy Cooke? He is a columnist for Card Player, and a very successful real estate broker in Las Vegas. He only plays 1-2 nights a week at most, yet he is one of the best players in the 40/80 game you will ever come across. Roy could become a pro, but he choses to work for a living because he makes significantly more money that way (I hope you are in the same boat!). I suggest reading his book so you can learn more about Roy, you can get it at Conjelco.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

I believe I already own Roy Cooke's book, if not, I have read it. I own a bunch of poker books and I sometimes forget which ones I own and which I don't own but have read.

I never worry when losses occur other than to double check my game to make sure they are not self-inflicted.

I wouldn't want anyone on this forum to think that I don't appreciate their advice or that I don't carefully consider everything I am told even when it is something I don't particularly want to hear.

Re: I set a new record at my B&M (Wrong Forum?)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Steam - do yourself a favor and give yourself a dedicated amount to start a bankroll and only play from within this bankroll. All winnings remain inside the bankroll so it can continue to grow. Since you were talking in the range of $500 I think its best that we start small and cross our fingers that you run good, put $3,000 aside as your dedicated poker money. This way if you lose a session your wife has nothing to complain about, it will never impact your standard of living. Conversely when you have a winning session she can be safe and secure in knowing that you have added padding to your roll so the next time you have a losing session it still won't affect your standard of living.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunatly TT, until you have a wife, or at least a wife like Steam's or mine, you will never understand how much this concept just doesn't work. I have a seperate bankroll. I have a seperate bank account that I keep it in, plus online accounts. But that is all for my purpose, not to keep my wife happy. The only reason I am still able to play poker at this point is that my wife has no real conception of the limits I play at. I have money that she doesn't have access to, and that bothers her.

Wives just don't seem to like the idea of "we are married, we have joint finances, we share everything... except my bankroll." Poker has paid for me to stay home for 6 weeks when my son was born, for a trip to Mexico, for numerous gifts for my wife, for a down payment on a car. And for all of that, my wife does not, and probably will never understand the necessity of a bankroll, or the relationship between a BR, play levels and hourly rate.

I don't even want to imagine the conversation I would be having if my wife knew that I lost $800 last week playing online. Regardless of the fact that it was only about 9% of my BR, and regardless of the fact that my BR started out as a $150 deposit with no redeposits. My wife would think of it as me losing $800 that could have made an extra payment on the mortgage.

I guess the point of this is: If you ever get married, make sure she understands the concept of the bankroll. Maybe even mention it in the vows.