Ring game/Weaker players
 

Yesterday i found a quite interesting cardplayer article about full-ring limit-holdem games with several weak players in it:
http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/15647

It basically says that it can become very frustrating to play in these games because your big hands will often be cracked through questionable calls by weaker players.
But because of your heavy preflop-raising with your big hand these players actually gets the right odds to call you down with only second or third pair in a big multiway pot.
Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

I dont know if this is a common way to play, but it is quite new to me.
How do you think about it? How do you deal with those kind of ring-games?

Should I just call preflop here???:

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (24SB, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#cc0000">CO 3-bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (24BB, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

Re: Ring game/Weaker players
 

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It basically says that it can become very frustrating to play in these games because your big hands will often be cracked through questionable calls by weaker players.

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Yes. But even more often they pay you off with weak holdings.

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Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

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Almost always this is plain wrong. Why this is wrong is explained in SSHE.

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Should I just call preflop here???:

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No. Never ever.

And why the [censored] are you folding the turn, getting 26:1?

Re: Ring game/Weaker players
 

I'm just reading throught the article. In the 5th paragraph hero only calls a raise with TPTK on a draw-heavy board. This is really bad. Hero likely has the best hand on this flop, he is likely the favorite for the hand and he definitely has a nice equity edge. Giving a cheap card to flush draws and OESD's (let alone gutshots and weaker pairs) is a mistake.

He might just call in order to c/r the turn. But he can't be sure CO will bet. CO might take a free card. So 3-bet flop.

Edit: In the final paragraph the author states that only limping big hands preflop is another weapon against weak players. WTF. Limping big hands preflop is a tricky, deceptive tactic working best/only against good, thinking players.

The best weapon against weak players that play too many hands and go too far with weak draws simply is value betting whenever you have an equity edge.

Re: Ring game/Weaker players
 

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Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

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They don't care about pot odds anyways. If your not raising when you have the best of it then you are losing value.

Let your opponnents decide whether they want to fold or not. Don't go trying to force out someone who came to play out of the pot. Bet your hand.

Worry about manipulating pot size when playing against opponnents who consider these types of things.

Edit: I didn't bother reading the article, but I think Ampellman summed up it up very well.

Re: Ring game/Weaker players
 

i call the turn

there is like a bazillion bets

Re: Ring game/Weaker players
 

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Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

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Most likely if someone is playing bad hands and going to far with them, they probably do not even know the term pot odds.

Re: Ring game/Weaker players
 

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Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (24SB, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#cc0000">CO 3-bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (24BB, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

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Where is this game???!!!! and Please tell me if it's over .25/.50... GET ME IN THERE!!!!

Oh yeah.... don't fold turn. 26:1 are great odds. One of the rules of SSH YOU DO NOT FOLD STRONG HANDS FOR ONE MORE BET IN MONSTER POTS.

Oh and the article. I've only started studying holdem but it seems like quackery to me. If I have the best hand pre-flop I want to raise... don't I?

Re: Ring game/Weaker players
 

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Oh and the article.

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To all newbies: Don't read this article if you want to learn good HE. The author's analysis of most streets in the example hand is wrong.

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If I have the best hand pre-flop I want to raise... don't I?

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Of course you do. Anyone who plays against A's makes a mistake preflop, since every other hand is a huge underdog. Of course, people don't know there are A's around. However, almost everyone calling the 3-bet preflop is definitely making a major mistake. Why not exploit this mistake further by capping? Not capping this pf is also a mistake.

Re: Ring game/Weaker players
 

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Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

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The author of this article hates money.

If you have a large pre-flop equity edge with hands like AA and KK you HAVE to raise.

Re: Ring game/Weaker players
 

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It basically says that it can become very frustrating to play in these games because your big hands will often be cracked through questionable calls by weaker players.
But because of your heavy preflop-raising with your big hand these players actually gets the right odds to call you down with only second or third pair in a big multiway pot.
Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

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Read -

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue19/lin0706.html

Re: Ring game/Weaker players
 

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However strong, experienced players are abandoning full-ring limit hold'em. The problem with these games - for the better players - is that the fixed betting structure often makes it impossible to protect a strong hand, and thus many pots simply become a lottery. This is an unsatisfactory state of affairs for players who want to make serious money in poker.

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

i just read this

the article writer is a tard, reading things like this will make you worse at poker...

Re: Ring game/Weaker players
 

Thats exactly how i felt about the article. Happy to hear that Im not alone. But then again how do you play in these games: try to see the flop cheaply as often as possible because of the huge implied odds or just wait for a big hand that wont be cracked?

Now to my laydown on the turn: At this point any six would have made a straight plus there was heavy action on the flop. I still was up against 5 opponents and even if i hit a set on the river (20:1) it might be no good.
I just had the feeling I was 100% beat at that point and i didnt want to pay somebody off.

As it turned out i was probably wrong: the river was a six and three players chopped it up with a straight on the board. There still were two BB to call on the river with any ten making a higher straight.