Party 3/6 6m KK
 

Hello All,

I play this hand very early in my session. My stack was full and my villains cover; BB's stack was $1800 deep. I did not yet have a read on these players.

I raised UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to $24. MP called and the BB raised to $60. I called (?) and MP called.

Flop: ($183) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000ff">(3 players)</font>
BB bets $120, Kristijan (?)

Thank you for your assistance.

KD.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

standard pot size raise fold to push

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
standard pot size raise fold to push

[/ QUOTE ]

doesn't a pot sized raise commit us?

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

i would just call the flop, and likely call down until im arr in.

i could also see calling the flop and folding to a turn bet, because his PFR looks a lot like QQ+ (it's so small!), but i'm kind of a fish, and in reality would call down.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

You still have ~290$ left behind, not really pot comitted.

I would not call down either. I would raise to see where I stand off the flop. Calling down is not good because your bettor has control of the pot.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

stackcheck,

it sounds like you don't know what a potsized raise is.

in this case, a potsized raise would be to $423 (183+120+120), leaving us with a little over $100 behind.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

The flop had 183 and the bet of 120. That is all the money in the pot right now correct?
Maybe Im wrong. But what I meant was raise to about 340 and fold to push. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

i kinda feel bad for the OP because this is something of a derail, but a PSR includes your "call" of his bet in your raise. although it isn't as big of a deal in this situation because you are shallow in relation to the pot, it's important in some situations because if you think of a PSR as what you're describing you'll end up giving your opponents odds to draw in a lot of hands. or something like that.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

Why no 4-bet pre? And actually a potsized raise would definitely commit you because you'd be all in. $423 would be the size of the raise +$120 to call = $543.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

4betting preflop in this spot allows the opponent to play very close to perfectly against us.

I think that calling the flop and shoving a non A/Q turn might be nice.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

Ok, but doesn't flat calling pre give MP odds to pretty much call with any 2 in position? Leaving us multi-way between the 3-better and a cold-caller in a bloated pot?

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

you have position, and you scare off most hands we beat if we 4 bet UTG so I'd rather call. As for this flop I would just call, you have position and he will slow down with jj AK and fire again with aa/qq in most cases.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why no 4-bet pre?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is actually kind of interesting. i think there was some discussion on this board (or it may have been HSNL) about how 4betting preflop allows your opponents to play perfectly against you, because it narrows your range to like two hands. there are, i guess, two different ways to counter this -- 4bet less (never) or 4bet with a broader range (add in some suited connectors, small pairs, whatever). it seems like the trend right now is to just give up on 4-betting.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

link goo? If we're heads up with BB and MP folds pre, I agree to call the 3-bet, but in this spot I don't see how it's correct.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

I'd probably call and then re-evaluate. In most cases I'd not get away if a blank hits.

I often flat call the PF 3-bet with AA or KK (depending on a lot of things) but the small size of the raise and the fact that the other guy is bound to call if you do would make me 4-bet PF here.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

took a little while but i found it. its just one of strassa's points, but it gets discussed more in the thread.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6967546

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

Thanks goo, that's a good thread. I think most of the 3-bet/4-bet talk was assuming heads up situations though.

To see where I'm coming from, look at this hand as if were were MP. We coldcall a UTG raise, BB basically min 3-bets and UTG just calls. We're getting 4:1 immediate odds and have position the entire hand, both relative and absolute. I'm basically licking my chops if I'm him.

I think we need to worry less about letting BB play perfectly here and worry more about getting it heads up, making a 4-bet correct. But I'm just learning, so who knows?

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

OP,

I'd probably just call here. There's no reason to scare off a better hand. This board isn't THAT ugly and MP is probably going to toss his cards w/o connecting and call with worse. If he sticks around in the hand you're going to have to tread lightly from there on out. Anyway, let BB keep betting a worse hand into you.

IMO raising the flop here is almost the same thing as 4betting PF. You define it to AA, KK, QQ, 77, maybe 44, maybe AQs. Now in one sense, yes, you find out where you're at pretty quick. But more often than not that's going to result in folding everyone out unless BB is so bad that he can't release KQ-. It's tough to know exactly what to do w/o reads.

jrbick

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

Hi All,

Thank you for replies so far. The action took place as I show here.

Flop: ($183) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000ff">(3 players)</font>
BB bets $120, Kristijan calls $120, MP raises all-in, BB calls, Kristijan folds....

Thank you again for your comments.

KD.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

I usually don't 4-bet preflop but given the tiny reraise, ya do it. I'd probably call on the flop and get it in on a non A/Q turn (assuming HU).
Edit: I see results now, def. fold.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

NH imo.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

Without a read I fold this to MP's shove.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

I think you have to 4 bet pre. The reason is that MP will have odds to call and on the flop you have to act between both players which is the worst possible position. I think avoiding this situation is more important that not giving away your hand pre.

On the flop I would just call and reval, i'm not neccesarily going broke on blank turn HU with BB if he is tight 3bettor and straightforward post flop.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

You need to 4bet pre because otherwise BB's retarded 3bet is giving MP great odds to break you.

Re: Party 3/6 6m KK
 

yeah - that rr by BB sucks - definitely a 4bet here pre