a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

this is my first time posting in the MTT forum. i've just started to work on my MTT game.

$20 on Absolute, 180ish entrants - we're down to 26 when this hand comes up, i'm 7th in chips. 18th place is where the money starts...

200/400 blinds, 50 ante

UTG (no reads, T10,000ish) mini raises, i'm UTG+1 w/ AA and about T9k.

what is my line here? i told myself that my chips were probably going in the middle no matter what was on the flop, so i flat called - hoping to get another caller or two.

i don't think JUST calling preflop is ever correct, am i right?- please call me a fish and throw rocks at me.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

You really need to re-raise preflop... I'd pop it up to about 2000. Without reads, I'll reraise here with 99+, AQ+. Minraises always tick me off.

-Gross

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

Raise to 1200-1600 and hope somebody else has a hand worth playing.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

There are times that smoothcalling with AA is a good strategy and there are times when it is not. This is not.

A good time to smoothcall AA is when an aggressive player raises up what you believe to be a strong hand (from utg usually) and you are on the button, CO, or hijack. Then it's good to smoothcall (especially if you think someone behind you will reraise).

At the same time, only smoothcall with AA if the stacks are relatively short compared to the blinds. Letting them see a cheap flop is dangerous and not worth it when you have a deep stack.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are times that smoothcalling with AA is a good strategy and there are times when it is not. This is not.

A good time to smoothcall AA is when an aggressive player raises up what you believe to be a strong hand (from utg usually) and you are on the button, CO, or hijack. Then it's good to smoothcall (especially if you think someone behind you will reraise).

At the same time, only smoothcall with AA if the stacks are relatively short compared to the blinds. Letting them see a cheap flop is dangerous and not worth it when you have a deep stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would've said you want the utg player to have a weak hand (i.e. he wouldn't call a reraise). If he's got a strong hand, you can probably get the money in now and avoid getting no more action if he has say TT and a couple overcards flop.

Steve

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

I think flat calling is fine, but raising is the more common play. However, your goal is not to get additional callers. Multiway, someone could outflop you, and it will be hard to get away from your overpair.

You are hoping someone else will reraise so that you can put in a 3rd raise. It is also not bad to get heads up with the miniraiser with position. Villain will likely atleast fire a continuation bet.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are times that smoothcalling with AA is a good strategy and there are times when it is not. This is not.

A good time to smoothcall AA is when an aggressive player raises up what you believe to be a strong hand (from utg usually) and you are on the button, CO, or hijack. Then it's good to smoothcall (especially if you think someone behind you will reraise).

At the same time, only smoothcall with AA if the stacks are relatively short compared to the blinds. Letting them see a cheap flop is dangerous and not worth it when you have a deep stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. Flat calling from early position with deep money is pretty standard. After all, your goal is to get allin preflop.

If you think the raiser has a strong hand and you are in late position, then just reraise rather than trap. He will almost certainly atleast call the reraise.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

I will mix it up and flat call someone from time to time, but I usually like to do it when I can better gauge how many people I have to contend with on the flop. Here, you could easilly end up in a multi-way pot oop.

I'd put in a standard re-raise and go from there. Give him a chance to put it all-in pre-flop.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this. Flat calling from early position with deep money is pretty standard. After all, your goal is to get allin preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

With deep stacks, the last thing I want to do is get it in preflop, even with AA (unless they have AK, but obviously if they want to get it in preflop that's only one of several hands they can have). When I say deep I mean above 50 bb's, simply because the 20% chance I have of being crippled is something I tend to avoid.

Chances are, if he has something strong (AK, KK, QQ, even JJ) and the flop isn't terrible for both of you, he's getting it in on the flop too. Let your hand be defined a little bit more. Besides, if you DON'T reraise preflop and you raise his flop bet, he will likely think his overpair is good more often than not.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

[ QUOTE ]
With deep stacks, the last thing I want to do is get it in preflop, even with AA (unless they have AK, but obviously if they want to get it in preflop that's only one of several hands they can have). When I say deep I mean above 50 bb's, simply because the 20% chance I have of being crippled is something I tend to avoid.

[/ QUOTE ]
?????

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this. Flat calling from early position with deep money is pretty standard. After all, your goal is to get allin preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

With deep stacks, the last thing I want to do is get it in preflop, even with AA (unless they have AK, but obviously if they want to get it in preflop that's only one of several hands they can have). When I say deep I mean above 50 bb's, simply because the 20% chance I have of being crippled is something I tend to avoid.

Chances are, if he has something strong (AK, KK, QQ, even JJ) and the flop isn't terrible for both of you, he's getting it in on the flop too. Let your hand be defined a little bit more. Besides, if you DON'T reraise preflop and you raise his flop bet, he will likely think his overpair is good more often than not.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have like 22 BB's, thats not deep...

and why wouldnt you want to get all your chips in with aces, no matter the stack sizes. i don't understand your post.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

20% chance of immediately being out of the tournament isn't something that I would say I'm jumping to do when I have a huge stack. If you can avoid extremely high variance situations once in a while your game will improve drastically. Getting it in preflop with the best hand doesn't allow you the ability to say 'well, I got unlucky.' You could've done something different to allow yourself maybe less EV but much less variance. I would rather go for a 10% chance of being busted out for half the chips I would receive otherwise.

If someone pushed in on the first hand of the WSOP main event and I had aces, I would consider folding. One of the main problems with MTT's is the extreme variance. I don't make tons of final tables by playing all my hands for all my chips.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

[ QUOTE ]
20% chance of immediately being out of the tournament isn't something that I would say I'm jumping to do when I have a huge stack. If you can avoid extremely high variance situations once in a while your game will improve drastically. Getting it in preflop with the best hand doesn't allow you the ability to say 'well, I got unlucky.' You could've done something different to allow yourself maybe less EV but much less variance. I would rather go for a 10% chance of being busted out for half the chips I would receive otherwise.

If someone pushed in on the first hand of the WSOP main event and I had aces, I would consider folding. One of the main problems with MTT's is the extreme variance. I don't make tons of final tables by playing all my hands for all my chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you a winning player?

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

This is an extreme example of what I'm talking about, and I certainly would take someone punting all their chips at me with aces in an online tournament simply because of how many we can do. But a reraise isn't automatic here simply because you can better judge position on the flop against terrible players and minimize variance.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

i dont think this is the right time to get greedy here so hoping for another caller who will have position on you is not a good idea...you can just smooth call if you think everyone will fold...but i would put in a raise big enough to make sure everyone but UTG folded...this could prob be done by putting 1 or 2 more bb;s on top of his raise...maybe even 3 to be safe...

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

Sorry for the thread hijack.

Anyway, this is a clear reraise. You don't want to play AA against so many people.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If someone pushed in on the first hand of the WSOP main event and I had aces, I would consider folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a huge mistake. Successful poker players don't pass up huge, huge edges like that.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

This is not a time to be cute, reraise to 2500 and hope the mini raiser has a big hand. This is the time to attack and make the most of the situation.
I'll take the AA and the variance every time.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If someone pushed in on the first hand of the WSOP main event and I had aces, I would consider folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a huge mistake. Successful poker players don't pass up huge, huge edges like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever considered it? Obviously not. I probably still wouldn't even fold it, but I would CONSIDER it. Poker is not a game of absolutes.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If someone pushed in on the first hand of the WSOP main event and I had aces, I would consider folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a huge mistake. Successful poker players don't pass up huge, huge edges like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

NOT ALL professional poker players risk it all on one hand. Many prefer to "grind" it out with small edges and positional advantages rather than risking it all with one shot. Sorry, got to agree with gobbo here.

Now with shorter stack, like the one here (22 BB's), I can make a case for this push. But it's not unreasonable to want to keep the pot manageable for the reason's gobbo stated.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

Doyle won a huge pot in the PSI1 but flat calling in this situation.

Cloutier and McEvoy give this as a standard play. I know they are a dubious authority, but still.

I don't see what's wrong with flat calling if you think there is a good chance someone will come over top.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a time to be cute, reraise to 2500 and hope the mini raiser has a big hand. This is the time to attack and make the most of the situation.
I'll take the AA and the variance every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

i think flat calling is fine for a player with strong reads of the table or a high chance of someone coming over the top. It also works well for a known aggressive player like Doyle since it adds deception.

However, this is the op mindset
" i told myself that my chips were probably going in the middle no matter what was on the flop, so i flat called - hoping to get another caller or two."

With this mindset your better of making sure more money is in the pot preflop.

Re: a question you\'re probably sick of answering...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this. Flat calling from early position with deep money is pretty standard. After all, your goal is to get allin preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

With deep stacks, the last thing I want to do is get it in preflop, even with AA (unless they have AK, but obviously if they want to get it in preflop that's only one of several hands they can have). When I say deep I mean above 50 bb's, simply because the 20% chance I have of being crippled is something I tend to avoid.

Chances are, if he has something strong (AK, KK, QQ, even JJ) and the flop isn't terrible for both of you, he's getting it in on the flop too. Let your hand be defined a little bit more. Besides, if you DON'T reraise preflop and you raise his flop bet, he will likely think his overpair is good more often than not.

[/ QUOTE ]

The "An Anthology of 2+2 Wisdom on MTTs" pinned on the message board has four threads devoted to this very topic. Check it out.

An Anthology of 2+2 Wisdom on MTTs