Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I have a secret. I know why most of you aren't crushing these Microlimit games. It isn't because you guys aren't smart, because you are. It isn't because you don't put the effort in to study, because you do. It isn't because your opponents play well, because they don't.

It's because you fold too damn much.

Most low-limit books contain advice that looks like this:

"Fit or fold."
"If you don't have the best hand or the best draw, fold."
"If you have bottom or middle pair, fold."
"If you have a pocket pair and don't hit your set on the flop, fold."
"If you have top pair, but don't like your kicker, fold."
"If you have a straight draw, but there are two of a suit on board, fold."
"If you have a flush draw, but the board is paired, fold."

This advice is terrible. In fact, I can prove that this advice is terrible right now. You are playing 1-2, and FishyPoker.com has decided to run a promotion. They are going to add $10 million to this one pot. How should you play? Well, however you play, you sure as hell shouldn't fold. Any dumbass who folds in a $10 million pot for a $2 bet is a moron.

Now you may say, "well, this is an extreme case," and it is. But the problem with the advice is that it IGNORES THE SIZE OF THE POT, which happens to be the single most important factor in any decision you make at the poker table. Every time you make any decision... whether it be betting or check-raising the flop or calling on the river, you need to be saying to yourself, "how big is the pot?" If you aren't, then you are playing poor poker.

In the past few weeks, I have seen approximately two zillion posts from players that folded top pair or an overpair in a big pot for just one bet. This is on the flop, on the turn, and on the river.

"I thought someone had to have me beat."
"I didn't like my kicker."
"I didn't want to be dominated."
"With all those players in, someone had to have a flush draw."

When the pot is big (and big essentially means as little as that there was a preflop raise) you need to focus on winning the pot. Big pots are the time to play aggressively and maximize your chance to win, not to save bets. Folding is saving bets. You should NOT be looking to fold in big pots... you should be constantly thinking about how you are going to win it, even if you don't have the best hand sometimes.

There was a post just this morning where someone limped in with A3s on the button after two limpers. The big blind raise behind and everyone called. The flop was AQ2, and the action went BB bet, one limper called, and it was your action. You have top frickin pair in a big (i.e. raised) pot, and it is one bet to you. The BB's bet shows no more strength than what he showed when he raised before the flop. He could easily have KQ or TT or 76s. The limper called... that means he has.. well, two cards. You are getting 11-1 on a call, and did I mention that you have top frickin pair?

And yet half (or more) of the advice told him to fold. TERRIBLE! Horrible, terrible, wretched poker advice. The pot is big, you have a good hand, no one has shown any real strength, and you are gonna bail? Absurd. Yes, sometimes the raiser will have AQ and you'll lose a couple of bets. But the pot is already way bigger than a "couple of bets." And when you have the raiser beaten, he's gonna be the one losing a couple of bets to you when he pays YOU off with his KK or whatever.

WHEN THE POT IS BIG DO NOT FOLD DECENT HANDS FOR ONE BET! Just stop doing it.

You know those guys that play "fearless" poker and seem to win? When the pot is big, it is time to play fearless. Throw in that extra bet or raise. If you crash and burn, so be it. That is winning poker, though. If you don't have the stomach for it, take up tiddle-e-winks.

The time to save bets is when the pot is small. Make your prudent folds in the four-ways for one bet pots.

For the love of god, think about this and reevaluate your game, guys. If I folded as much as you guys do, I'd be flat broke right now.

Ok. Every one of you now officially owes me a beer next time you come to Vegas. Don't think I'm not gonna collect, either...

Great Post -nm-
 

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Does salad count?

All newbies...read this....AWESOME POST...
 

MK,

I vote for this as post of the New Year...so far.

Solid information.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

LOL, I thought about your advice and the first hand I play, I win a pot I would almost never win, calling down someone with a straight and flush draw. And then the 2nd hand I played, I pussied out on the turn. Ah...so much to learn.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. Every one of you now officially owes me a beer next time you come to Vegas. Don't think I'm not gonna collect, either...

[/ QUOTE ]

When I get there I will buy you a whole friggin case! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

What constitutes "crushing the game"?

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I've been debating this same thing recently; as I think I was losing some bets by throwing away hands that seemed marginal to me.

The problem is this advice kind of goes against the general "tight aggressive" approach that one would read about. However, the way that I combatted this scenario is just to keep my pre flop standards still very high, but made myself willing to call down single bets with middle pair, overcards, etc. I've found since I've started doing that I have begun to win many more hands, and the few games since I started seeing the river more with good hands have been far more profitable.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Great post.

I was in Vegas from 12/25 to 12/30 and played at The Bellagio a few times (8/16 mainly, but one incrediably good 4/8 game on Christmas morning). I'll be back in late Jan. I'd be happy to buy you a beer, but how do I find you?

Funny hand just happened in response to this
 

.50/1 Party

5 callers to my A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the Small blind.

I raise, BB Folds, UTG Re-raises (after limping), 1 more caller to me, and I cap it.

Flop comes King [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] . I bet, UTG calls, 1 remaining guy raises, I reraise, both call.

Turn comes K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] . The raiser was representing the 5 or the K it seemed, I check (possibly weak), UTG checks and the raiser bets. We both call.

River comes 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] . I figure at this point I'm beat, despite just hitting the boat. I check, UTG wakes up and bets. The raiser from earlier raises. I figure I am pretty well toast at this point but make a crying call only because the pot was huge. UTG re-raises and we both call.

UTG shows 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Raiser shows 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I take down a 23.50 pot on a .5/1 table. Maybe I misplayed a bit, but this post inspired me to stick to it [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

The problem is this advice kind of goes against the general "tight aggressive" approach that one would read about.

It doesn't. You play tight before the flop. You play tight in small pots. You play AGGRESSIVELY in big pots.

When the pot is small, it's not that important to play aggressively, but it is crucial to play tight.

When the pot is large, it's not important to play tight, but it is crucial to play aggressively.

Also, quite frankly, a lot of what you read about poker isn't worth the paper it is printed on. 2+2 books give solid, reliable advice. Most other books give you pathetically weak-tight advice. It is advice that is designed to prevent you from losing too much money, not advice that will help you be a big winner.

I'm not going to name names, but you guys would be better off scrapping all those "low-limit" books you read and just study your ass off on the 2+2 library.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

By all means I wasn't trying to downplay your advice, just stating why I think most people that are trying to learn poker have trouble calling down in these situations.

I certainly struggled with it because the things I read. However, I do think its great advice, just difficult to handle at times for someone that is trying to play "tight" as they are "taught".

As you saw in my other post in this thread, thanks for the advice [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I kinda learned this on my own but the reinforcement from seeing someone in the know say it will help a lot with my confidence.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Ya.. I know what the problem is. The root of the problem is all these crappy books that have been written. It's not natural for people to make these mistakes.. these are mistakes that are "taught" as you put it.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Maybe this is premature, but I think that you make a very valid point. One thing that I have found of my game is that I play too tight -- if the flop doesn't hit me hard, I usually drop it. The result is that I don't win many hands, and quite frankly get bored playing. Yesterday, I started playing two tables at once, which I think has vastly improved my game -- because between the two tables I see quality cards more often, I feel less pressured to play marginal hands. In any case, here's a hand I just had...

Party $0.50/$1... not too loose, for a Party table

Hero is the SB, dealt 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

EP1 folds, EP2 limps, folded to CO who limps along with the button. Hero completes, and BB raises. Called by all except button, Hero calls.

The flop is: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero checks, BB bets and is called around. Hero thinks about calling the gutshot straight for a moment, knowing that he was trained himself to let it go, however tempting it is. But then Hero thinks about Majorkong's post, and takes a look at the pot odds (around 12:1), and decides to call.

The turn: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Sweet! Hero checks, BB bets, called around, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, folded to Hero who caps.

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Crap, hope he didn't have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or something, but he has been playing as if he has a pocket pair. Hero bets out, BB calls.

Hero takes down $17.75. BB says, "y did you stay in?"

I don't want to get too excited about hitting a gutshot, but I will say this -- many books I have read say that when the competition gets looser, you have to just get tighter. When thinking about the math behind that, it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps tighter with your big cards, and looser with your draws?

All I know is that I took my fourth or fifth foray into online poker a couple days ago, after many failed attempts over the past year or so. I played tight and wasn't losing money, but wasn't making any either. Finally, I said, "All right, that's it, I need to stop playing like a total wuss." So I became more aggressive, loosened up just a little, and in the past 36 hours have just about doubled by bankroll.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Folding your hand for one bet on the flop would have been a big mistake. You have not just a gutshot, but also two overcards. I'm glad that you have corrected your play as a result of my post. I hope you make the change permanent, not just while this post is fresh in your mind.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

you were a 5:1 dog on the flop with 12:1 odds that is an AUTOMATIC call.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Majorkong, This post is a little of a wake-up call for me as well. I had already started changing my ways, but this post has hammered it home.

I too tended to "fit or fold" a little too much. I started watching the size of the pot, and at .5/1, if there is a raise PF, I usually have to odds on the flop to draw with 2nd pair, gutshots, overcards, backdoor flushes, all kinds of stuff.

People on Party .5/1 will bet out on the flop with ALL kinds of stuff. Especially small/middle pocket pairs, even when there are overcards(or 2, or 3) on the board. They LOVE pocket pairs.

With an over card or 3 flush and a gutshot, there are quite a few turn cards that will improve you, at least to a 4 flush or straight, where you will almost always have the odds to call the turn.

Last nite I played JTs on button, flop the OESD to the nuts on a rainbow board. It's capped 4 ways by the time it gets to me. A couple of weeks ago i might have VERY STUPIDLY folded, scared by all the crazy action, and having to pay 2BB just to see one more card, and sure I was up against a "made hand".

Now I realize It's only 4:1 against me hitting the stone cold nuts on the turn, with like a gillion SB in the pot.

Turn is the brick and SAME THING, capped 4 ways to me. More gillion:1 pot odds. The beautiful 7 hits on the river and I win like a 32BB pot that I would have been scared out of just a week or 2 ago.

Not saying any of this to educate anyone, I'm sure it's obvious to many. But slowly climbing out of weak-tightdom is helping me win much more than I have been. I started out basically being a Lee Jones robot. I have no doubt whatsoever you will win money at online micros playing exactly like he says. But by taking that game and adjusting it based on the posts of majorkong, clark, JT, nottom, and many others, is the way to start "crushing" these micros.

I'm not crushing anything yet, I have a LONG way to go. But so far this is the biggest revalation I've come across.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I think part of the problem here is one of modeling: if there's one thing that posters here encourage you not to be, it's fishy. And everyone's favorite type of profitable fish is the Calling Station. I know that I'm probably folding winning hands, and that I occasionally suffer the emotional catastrophe of a river laydown. I'm a little eager to get out there and play more aggressively postflop, but I understand why I've been playing weakly. No one wants to look like the Fish we spend our days profiting off.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Great post! Speaking as someone who took tight/aggressive play as a revelation from the first chapter of my first poker book, it's sometimes hard to realize I'm giving my opponents WAY too much credit.

But at the same time, it's important to remember that this isn't about being timid, it's about recognizing pot odds AT EVERY FLOP YOU SEE.

The biggest hole in my young game is playing too aggressively post-flop when I have nothing (probably because I've waited so long for the proper starting hands and can't give them up). Because I've played so tightly, I feel I can drive my opponent out of the pot with a few raises, which is a moronic strategy in low-limit games.

So I've filled that hole by making some tough laydowns, and I've become more profitable for it. But when I've got 10-1 on the turn, and I'm looking for that gutshot to the nut straight, I'm going to call every single time.

At the same time, however, I've trained myself to ditch those pocket jacks against a flop with AK if it's down to me and another caller. I'm not going to go down calling for a 1-to-23 miracle because I feel like a wimp.

So, fantastic post. But be careful to understand ALL of it. Always be aware of your chances. Majorkong said "when the pot is big." Make sure it is.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
you were a 5:1 dog on the flop with 12:1 odds that is an AUTOMATIC call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he had a high pocket pair (likely), the 8s and 9s aren't really outs.

This one and...
 

the post about "charging the flush draws" a couple of days ago. Truly two of the most informative I've read in the last twelve months. Thanks so much for your continued efforts on this forum.

***Newbies*** study every word; and do yourselves a favor and search out the flush post I mentioned.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

he's 5:1 on the gutshot only on the flop 11:1 on the turn, I didn't count the overcards as outs for the reasons you stated.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Thanks for the info.

I dont do very well at micro limits and this is probably a leak in my game I can fix.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

If he had a high pocket pair (likely), the 8s and 9s aren't really outs.

What do you know that excludes these as outs? So far you have only called and have no information as to the betters hand other than he liked it preflop and felt obligated to bet it post flop.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Even Lee Jones would make that flop call.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Major,

Thanks for taking the time to post this well-written lesson. I do have to admit, however, that I initially felt somewhat rattled by your words, for although I believe that I usually am fairly cognizant of pot odds when it comes to chasing, I tend to underuse checkraises, and I also tend to laydown on the river for one bet when it seems clear that my second/third pair is beaten.

In addition, soon after reading your post, I proceeded to lose approx. 12BB in a Party 1/2 game, in part due to playing A4s from MP in a soft game and then getting dominated after the flop. Oh well [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Following this discombulation, I rested for a few hours, and then hosted my bimonthly 1/2 home game. I reminded myself to play aggressively when the opportunities would present themselves.

During one of the final orbits of the night, we were playing seven-handed HE and I was dealt AJo in the BB. I believe four or five others called, and I checked. The flop came AJ7r. I checked, solid ABC player to my left raised, an LAG coldcalled, folded back to me and I checkraised, to which LAG muttered loudly:

"Man, that's like the fifteenth time you checkraised tonight; 'Yeah, come to my house, everybody, so I can checkraise you.'"

That was the best poker compliment I ever received [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
During one of the final orbits of the night, we were playing seven-handed HE and I was dealt AJo in the BB. I believe four or five others called, and I checked. The flop came AJ7r. I checked, solid ABC player to my left raised, an LAG coldcalled, folded back to me and I checkraised, to which LAG muttered loudly:

"Man, that's like the fifteenth time you checkraised tonight; 'Yeah, come to my house, everybody, so I can checkraise you.'"

[/ QUOTE ]

The 3-bet checkraise! That gives me the sweetest feeling.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
During one of the final orbits of the night, we were playing seven-handed HE and I was dealt AJo in the BB. I believe four or five others called, and I checked. The flop came AJ7r. I checked, solid ABC player to my left raised, an LAG coldcalled, folded back to me and I checkraised, to which LAG muttered loudly:

"Man, that's like the fifteenth time you checkraised tonight; 'Yeah, come to my house, everybody, so I can checkraise you.'"

[/ QUOTE ]

The 3-bet checkraise! That gives me the sweetest feeling.

[/ QUOTE ]


Oops, actually it wasn't a three-bet. ABC player bet after I checked, and it was coldcalled before it was folded back to me. Sorry for the confusion; I hope it doesn't ruin the story [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]


In the past few weeks, I have seen approximately two zillion posts from players that folded top pair or an overpair in a big pot for just one bet. This is on the flop, on the turn, and on the river.

"
When the pot is big (and big essentially means as little as that there was a preflop raise) you need to focus on winning the pot. Big pots are the time to play aggressively and maximize your chance to win, not to save bets. Folding is saving bets. You should NOT be looking to fold in big pots... you should be constantly thinking about how you are going to win it, even if you don't have the best hand sometimes.

There was a post just this morning where someone limped in with A3s on the button after two limpers. The big blind raise behind and everyone called. The flop was AQ2, and the action went BB bet, one limper called, and it was your action. You have top frickin pair in a big (i.e. raised) pot, and it is one bet to you. The BB's bet shows no more strength than what he showed when he raised before the flop. He could easily have KQ or TT or 76s. The limper called... that means he has.. well, two cards. You are getting 11-1 on a call, and did I mention that you have top frickin pair?



[/ QUOTE ]

What I would simply point out is that you have to know something about pot odds. Not everything, surely, but if you don't at least know the basic odds on the common situations that you face all the time, you are going to end up losing a lot of money by either being in hands you shouldn't be in, or ducking out of hands you should stay in.

This A-3 suited hand is an interesting example. Although I'm not sure its the best example for your point. Here's your basic delimna with it, your Ace no kicker hands are a good way to lose a lot of money hand after hand. Say this is a .25/.50 game. So far you've thrown in 50 cents of your stake into the pot. If you call here, and then call a turn bet and a river bet thats an <font color="red"> additional </font> dollar twenty five you're putting in on a hand that you can't like very much. Chasing like that will drive you broke. Chase and lose about three pots like that like that and you probably have to win at least two decent sized pots just to break even without even factoring in other pots you get involved in where you miss the flop entirely, and the slow steady drain of the blinds. (of course you could win a monster pot somewhere along the line but how many of those do you get?)

So if you fold now you can get involved in 2.5 more raised pots for the same amount of money where maybe the flop hits you hard, or 5 more pots where you get to limp in and again get a flop that you really like, instead of a marginal flop.

ok, there's the case for folding. I don't think its a bad one. Playing this pot going in, what you really wanted was a big flop like a flush draw or a two pair or trips (preferably trip threes).

However, you may, and this is why majorkong's advice has merit, have the pot odds to continue to play. You might have the best hand with the top pair. Further, you can still improve--you have five outs to make two pair or trips (of course if you're behind now to a higer ace, trip aces are just going to trap you for a lot of money). Five outs is a bit better than 8.5-1. What are your pot odds? 10.5-1. Bingo...a clear call.

So I think majorkong's advice would be better stated as: pay attention to the pot odds. Saying, "don't fold so much" is just an invitation to people to start getting into trouble.
Although, in this specific example, I still don't know that calling is a great thing to do...what happens on 4th and 5th street if you don't improve? The play is much more difficult than if you have top pair with a big kicker. Sure, if there was one of your suit on the flop and if the turn has another one of your suit, now you do possibly have 14 outs to improve on the river and can call if the BB bets and the limper calls. If not....now its 14.5 small bets to you and you have to put in two more....you don't have pot odds anymore, and I wouldn't put much stock in implied odds because what's the limper calling with on the flop and now the turn? Looks a lot like an ace that he doesn't like much (but its got to be better than yours)--but because he's acting in front of you you can't drive him out if he's called the BB. Now not only don't you have implied odds to call the 8.5 to one, it looks like you may not have 8.5 to one at all because making trip aces just gives him a better hand to take your money with.

Ok, sure its a big pot, but at the flop you just have 2 small bets in it. It'd be nice to win it, but its gonna hurt to lose it when you triple your loss (from fifty cents to a buck seventy five--one more small bet and two big bets) and you simply don't have a strong hand.
Ok. So what to do, what to do. majorkong doesn't say what to do on later streets. You could try this, given that you have position. Call the flop. If you don't improve and BB bets and is called--you fold. But if its checked to you on the turn--Ah ha! Now it looks like the BB has a big pair rather than a big ace, the limper may have still have a weak ace, but you aren't as convinced of that as you would be if he'd called another bet. Now you have options.

Or if calling and folding to a bet on the turn still seems weak to you--Raise on the flop. Unfortunately you won't be able to drive out a weak ace, since the limper is already in for a bet but it helps to define you opponents and may let you drive out the weak ace on the turn if they check to you and you choose to bet rather than take a free card. This is the more expensive option, however and its difficult to know what the best turn play is.

If you raise, you may get called and then either bet at or checked to on the turn. Or you may get re-raised by the big blind. It'll cost you more now, but you do have more information.

Actually, the more I look at this the less I like it as an example. Because trip aces may help one of your opponents more than you, this is a tricky hand with a lot of permutations to it. Not a straightforward fold, although, I like that option better than majorkong does, but tricky.

Better examples would be hands that look real likely not to be the best hand but that you have the odds to improve and the improvement probably does give you the best hand. Middle pairs in 10 bet pots, gutshots in 14 bet pots, those kind of things.

I still believe though, that in low limit chasing too much will get you killed.

Thanks for another GREAT post N/M
 

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I think majorkong's advice would be better stated as: pay attention to the pot odds. Saying, "don't fold so much" is just an invitation to people to start getting into trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you,
I had a problem when this was first posted. I think encouraging new players to chase when they may or may not have proper odds to do so is a little irresponsable. Part of playing winning poker is realizing when you are beat and laying down a hand that may be drawing dead or near dead regardless of how big the pot gets.

Regardless of what people think or say on this board weak/tight is not a terrible way to play micro limit games. It is true that it may not maximize winnings, but it WILL make you a winning player at this level. Learning when to turn up the heat and when to dial it back is something that can only come with experience. Telling someone it is okay to chase if they have not taken the time or fully obsorbed the proper mathematics to make this determination simply because the pot is large is just a way to make this learning curve a very expensive one.

I posted earlier in this thread to ask what Majorkong considered "crushing the game" and got no response. IMO "crushing" is a realive term and I think may be relavent to some of the winning players who post here. I apologize if it seemed sarcastic, but I felt it was a legitamite question.

In closing I would just like to state that I greatly respect Majorkong's experience and knowledge. In fact I actively seek out his posts, but I suspect that this post may do more harm than good for some of the newer players that are still trying to learn this great game.

TheRake

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I think you may have misinterpreted the post. MajorKong did not suggest chasing, rather playing the pot odds and not folding when you actually have the pot odds to call.

If readers of the post don't understand pot odds at this point, that would be one of the first things they should learn by reading. Understanding pot odds, and playing according to the pot odds makes it mathematically possible to win at poker as opposed to relying moreso on luck.

I would define crushing the game as winning &gt; 2 BB / hr.

I believe another point of the Major's post was to stop seeing "monsters under the bed" and folding what could very well be the winning hand. Throwing away the winning hand to aggression is what you're supposed to be making the OTHER people do by playing aggressively.

T

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I have been playing for about 4 months and to be honest I still have problems figuring out odds and pot odds, especially on the fly. I'm sure this will come naturally to experienced players, but to me, and I believe most newer players, these mathematical figures can't be figured quick enough to play online. I try and think about it on every hand but a lot of times it is just "Its a big pot, so I am going to see this down" vs, " this is a small pot, Its not worth my money".

One thing I can say to the newer players who aren't hot with odds yet is "Don't Chase unless the pot is big". The more remote your outs are the pot must be bigger.

I think MajorKong was exactly right in what he said. Just not sure if newer players like me are at the point of utilizing it to the fullest.

Jim

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing for about 4 months and to be honest I still have problems figuring out odds and pot odds, especially on the fly.

[/ QUOTE ]

The best thing to do is to just memorize the pot odds on the most common situations you face. So post flop, you are going to draw one card (usually the odds are close enough to the same drawing to the turn, and drawing to the river that you can treat them the same):

--Flush draw (2suited in your hand, 2 of the suit on the board): about 4-1

--Open ended straight draw: about 5-1 (4.8 to the turn, 4.75 to the river)

--Gutshot straight draw: about 11-1 (actually 10.75-1 to the turn, 10.5 to one to the river)

--Overcards (odds of pairing one of your cards when both are higher than any card on the flop): about 6.5 to one (6.8 turn, 6.6 river)

--drawing to one pair (you have middle or low pair and while it may be good, you'd really like to improve to either two pair or trips): about 8.5-1

--Drawing to a pocket pair (you missed your set on the flop): 22.5-1 and 22 to one.


Anything I left out anybody? Are my numbers right?

The really important thing to remember however, is that improving your hand may not win it for ya. If you can accurately put your opponent on a hand it may be that your actual odds of improving to a winning hand are much worse than just the odds of improving your hand to something better than you already have.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Nice post. I agree with it in general. Just to make it easy on myself I think of overcards as 7-1. Makes the math easier and is slightly conservative, which is probably good since you won't win every time you hit your overcards anyway.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Good post! You're math just got a lot better. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

I had a problem when this was first posted. I think encouraging new players to chase when they may or may not have proper odds to do so is a little irresponsable. Part of playing winning poker is realizing when you are beat and laying down a hand that may be drawing dead or near dead regardless of how big the pot gets.

Frankly, I think encouraging new players to lay down all their marginal hands regardless of pot size is irresponsible. Yet this is exactly what almost every book on hold 'em advises you to do. And I see it manifest in post after post on this board.

Laying down top pair is the exception, not the rule. This is doubly true when the pot has been raised preflop. Yet in post after post, I see, "well, Axs is really a poor hand because you have to lay down if you flop an ace."

Well, if you HAD to lay down if you flopped an ace, then Axs WOULD be a pretty crappy hand. Fortunately, you don't, and Axs is a pretty decent hand... especially hands like A9s and A8s. Someone drilled it into all these newbies heads that they need to fold if they flop an ace. It certainly wasn't me.

I think the main problem is the fundamental concept of "being beat." You cannot be beaten until the river. Before the river, even if you are behind, you are drawing, not beaten. You have a chance to win. It is this chance, plus the chance you are ahead, plus the big overlay that the pot gives you that makes it correct to continue when in doubt.

The big dividing line is whether the pot was raised before the flop or not. It is difficult to play too loosely after the flop when it was raised before the flop. On the other hand, when the pot was unraised before the flop, you need to really start evaluating the quality of the hands you want to continue with, including top pair. This is the spot where you fold your ace-rag hands if it looks like you might be drawing slim. This is the spot where you fold your weak draws because you are worried someone might raise behind you. This is the spot where a board full of potential redraws can turn a call or raise into a fold.

Make no mistake, though. The money in low-limit hold 'em is made by those who know how to push the edges and win more than their share of the big pots. Limit hold 'em is just plain not a game of laydowns. Those who make the expert laydowns (as opposed to the routine ones that many players make), but do not aggressively pursue the big pots, will be only marginal winners at best.

Regardless of what people think or say on this board weak/tight is not a terrible way to play micro limit games. It is true that it may not maximize winnings, but it WILL make you a winning player at this level.

I agree. You can play tight before the flop, and weak-tight poker after the flop and beat small limit games. You will not beat them for that much, but you will beat them.

But why learn to play that way? If you learn to play that way, you will not be prepared to move up. If you play that way in mid-limit games, you will not win. You will never be more than a mediocre player. The time to start learning to play correctly is now, in micro-limits. Why learn a simple strategy that beats only very soft games when you can learn a more complex strategy that can beat any limit hold 'em game? Especially when the more complex strategy will win much more in the soft games as well.

You guys are here to learn to play solid, winning poker. Solid winning poker means playing tight before the flop, tight in small pots, and aggressively in big pots.

Re: Why you guys aren\'t crushing these Microlimit games...
 

Folding for one bet on the flop in the A3s is just plain bad. You cannot profitably call with A3s before the flop if you plan to make that fold every time (perhaps this is why so many seem to think the hand should be folded before the flop).

Now, just because you called or raised the flop does not mean that you will necessarily show the hand down. After you act on the flop, you need to do some hand-reading to figure out where you stand. This is a skill that you learn with time. But you are permitted to call on the flop and fold on the turn, for instance... there is no rule that says that if you call the flop, you have committed to calling two more big bets.

But just because you have to make a potentially tough decision later in the hand doesn't mean that you should avoid it by folding. Folding A3s for one bet on the flop after that action is simply giving money away. There is no other educated way to view it.

rule of 13
 

5 outs = ~8 to 1 (5+8 = 13)
6 outs = ~7 to 1 (6+7 = 13)
7 = ~6 to 1 (7+6 = 13)
8 = ~5 to 1 (8+5 = 13)
9 = ~4 to 1 (9+4 = 13)

this involves some rounding and falls apart outside of this range (4 outs = ~11 to 1) but it's an easy way to quickly recall approximately what odds you are looking for in common situations.

great thread kong!
-tpir

A note about \"pot odds\"
 

So several of you have objected to my post because I only talked about big pots and little pots without mention of "pot odds." I intentionally did not mention that concept for a couple of reasons:

1. Discussing "pot odds" automatically makes many newer players assume that they are behind. "I have middle pair, and I am getting 8-to-1 to call, so I can call because of the pot odds." The assumption, of course, is that you are behind and drawing. This will often be the case when you have middle pair, but it won't always be the case. The chance that your hand is best is more important when the pot is big.

2. Discussion of "pot odds" makes people play more passively. People think "I have odds to call." They don't think "I'm getting 8-to-1, so I should raise." Frequently you should raise instead of call when the pot is big. The reason is that you improve your chance to win the pot with a raise. When the pot is large, that improved chance is often worth more than the extra bet that you invest.

When you have a marginal hand in a big pot, your hand has value for two reasons. First, you may improve... a chance that you can quantify mathematically. Second, you may have the best hand (or be in the position to eliminate the person with the best hand if no one has a good hand). This chance is much harder to quantify. But it is also VERY costly to ignore. So the pot is laying you 8-to-1. You have a hand that is 14-to-1 against to improve.. but it might be the best hand. What should you do? Well, I can't tell you. But I can tell you that IN GENERAL, when the pot is big, you should continue and when the pot is small, you should fold.

Why should you continue when the pot is big but fold when it is small? 8-to-1 is 8-to-1, after all. The reason is that later bets are smaller in proportion to the pot when it is big than when it is small. Calling down with a marginal made hand is cheaper when the pot contains 16 small bets and it is 2 small bets to you than when it contains only 8 small bets and it is 1 small bet to you.

Furthermore, raising to knock out marginal hands is more profitable when the pot is big. It is much easier to improve your chances of winning by 5% with one extra bet than it is to improve it by 10%. Thus, there is more value to staying in when the pot is big.