Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

Last night I played about 100 hands on a PP5/10 table with a 96/60/1.8 maniac - on my immediate left. And the 60 PFR is a little understated since he was forced to call capped flops. Amongst other hands, he 3-bet 43o and capped 63o.

When he first sat down, I was OK. I had a couple of middling hands (KTs, etc) that I open raised, he 3-bet and I was HU against him. But after a couple of rounds, the rest of the table caught on and started 3-betting/capping with normal raising hands, and I wasn't able to isolate him anymore.

At this point I was completely lost. I kept finding myself playing ATs or 88 for 3 or 4 bets and having no idea where I was during the hand. I almost just got up and left the table, but I couldn't force myself with all these 15-20BB hands going on. How do people adjust to a situation like this?

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

If the table begins to threebet you/ cap light like this, you just have to tighten back up IMO. You are still in a very profitable situation. This is not to say that you should only be playing premiums; its just that AT or even 88 type hands won't play well OOP in multiway capped pots.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

Bad situation overall. If the table is adjusting and iso-3-betting then all you can do is wait for big hands (TT+, AK, AJs+, KQs) and get in as many bets as possible; mix open-raises and limp-reraises.

Occasionally:
-you'll be able to play in the blinds.
-you'll be in the cutoff and able to open raise with an isolation-worthy hand (any ace, K9+, PP's)
-you can play for 1 (really 2) bets in late position if there are a lot of limpers, which will allow you to trap the field when you flop big.
Most of the time an ultra-TAG strategy is best, or just leave the table and buddylist the maniac if you're getting tilted.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

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Bad situation overall.

[/ QUOTE ] Not really. Just not as good as it could be.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

HEPFAP has a section on this.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

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you can play for 1 (really 2) bets in late position if there are a lot of limpers, which will allow you to trap the field when you flop big.

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This is specifically the situation that was giving me trouble. 3 limpers to me in the CO. I have 88 or ATs. Do I fold? If I just call, it's going to raised and, since everyone is working off the maniac, often going to get 3-bet and come back to me for 2 more bets. And I can't raise or I'll get (at least) 3-bet and end up with my implied odds destroyed.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

seat change asap

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bad situation overall.

[/ QUOTE ] Not really. Just not as good as it could be.

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True. I guess it's relatively speaking a bit frustrating to be on that side of the maniac when you are playing so few hands and especially when they don't hold up or you get frozen up by a 3-bet/cap from someone on the other side.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

[ QUOTE ]
seat change asap

[/ QUOTE ] I hope you aren't suggesting he change tables. I agree with trying to get on LAG's left, but this just probably won't be possible online.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

Tighten up your own playing standards, as mentioned above, but don't even think about folding any pocket pairs preflop. Reason being that, with the maniac going crazy on just about anything & the rest of the table assuming any bet or raise is just an isolation attempt against said maniac, your implied odds on a flopped set go through the roof. So yes, playing those pocket pairs will add a lot of variance to your game, but given the table conditions you described they are very much +EV...even if you have to pay 3 or 4 bets preflop to play them.

What you have to forget about are hands like medium aces, suited connectors, and most king high hands (I'd make an exception for KQs and maybe KJs depending on the circumstances). Offsuit broadway in particular just isn't going to fare well in this kind of environment, at least not below AQo. The only times you might be able to play more speculative hands (suited connectors mainly) are when it's limped/folded to you in the CO or later, assuming that your opponents haven't been doing things like limp/reraising to isolate on the maniac's late position raises.

This is a tough and incredibly high-variance situation to play in, but with some adjustment it can still be very profitable.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

if the maniac has changed the game to an extent that everyone is going maniacal PF tighten up. i'm thinking TT+, AQs, AKs, AKo. you can't play any implied odds hands if it is going 3bets or more pf and hands like 88 and 99 may be best pf when the money is going in, but multiway you will be outdrawn a good portion of the time with few outs if you don't flop a set. it may sound boring, but it will make the most money i think(if i am understanding the table dynamics properly). also, it will help minimize variance which can be a big factor given the action and players involved. these pots get so big pf that alot of people with alot of hands are going to the river. it is an unavoidable fact. and your seat sucks.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

I disagree with everyone saying tighten up. When your opponents are opening/3-betting a wider range, then you should be capping a wider range. HEFAP's section on wild games is pretty poor too. I don't disagree that you could probably show a profit just playing AA-JJ/AK (or whatever hands he lists); I disagree that it's the most +EV strategy to play. It's definitely going to be high variance playing at such a table, so if you can't handle it, then you might want to switch tables. If you have the bankroll and the stomach, though, it'd definitely be a great situation to be in (except that your seat sucks).

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with everyone saying tighten up. When your opponents are opening/3-betting a wider range, then you should be capping a wider range. HEFAP's section on wild games is pretty poor too. I don't disagree that you could probably show a profit just playing AA-JJ/AK (or whatever hands he lists); I disagree that it's the most +EV strategy to play. It's definitely going to be high variance playing at such a table, so if you can't handle it, then you might want to switch tables. If you have the bankroll and the stomach, though, it'd definitely be a great situation to be in (except that your seat sucks).

[/ QUOTE ]

so what's your range?

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

are you saying that people were paying enough attention to come in for a cold cap with a wide range of hands if you action went you raise maniac 3-bets? If so, thats fine cut out some of your marginal hands that don't have high card strength, but otherwise just now you're going to be playing a higher variance game.

If people are willing to let you and the maniac drive everybody out then start getting yourself isolated by him. Open raise Ax, broadway hands, pps and get to SD with your weak hands with showdown value and take him to value town with everything else.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

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are you saying that people were paying enough attention to come in for a cold cap with a wide range of hands if you action went you raise maniac 3-bets?

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Yeah, it wasn't so much that people we're paying attention. It's hard to miss a guy that's raising about 75% of the time. There was a lot of LRR going on as people understood they were always going to get a chance to 3-bet their big hands and probably see them get capped too. And likewise, people started cold-calling 3 bets with less hands, so isolating was hard to do.

It's interesting that the advice is all over the place. I ended up playing the last 50 hands or so really tight and passive. Of course that's not enough hands to counteract variance, so I haven't any idea if that was the best way to react. It seemed the safest, but I can't help but think it didn't take advantage of all the loose money laying on the table.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

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I disagree with everyone saying tighten up. When your opponents are opening/3-betting a wider range, then you should be capping a wider range.

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That's true when we have position on the maniac/overreacting opponents. But when Hero is going to be out of position on just about every hand, those marginal hands become losers against halfway decent opponents (which I'm assuming the rest of the table was). Too often if you raise with KQo, for example, it's going to be 3-bet by the maniac & capped by someone behind him, at which point you have to check/fold nearly every flop you don't hit...especially when the action on the flop is almost always going to be at least bet/raise. Same thing goes for hands like AJ-ATo & small/medium suited aces.

Out of position in a game like this, you pretty much have to anticpate every hand costing you 4 SBs to see the flop & at least 2 more to see the turn, and adjust your starting hand requirements to be primarily hands which have enough strength to pay those bets unimproved.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

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you pretty much have to anticpate every hand costing you 4 SBs to see the flop & at least 2 more to see the turn, and adjust your starting hand requirements to be primarily hands which have enough strength to pay those bets unimproved.

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I was immediately left of a loose/aggressive(60/30ish) last night for a few orbits. Other players started coming in with hands like suited connectors. One player across the table started getting out of his comfort zone, perhaps mesmerized by the big pots. Preflop was 3-bet and capped the majority of pots making these hands expensive to play, especially when they flopped weak draws. As OP stated, how do you know where you stand postflop?

I think the above is the best advice. Once the whole table catches on - let the other players suffer the swings.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

Play tighter. When you enter a pot, raise and let the lagtard reraise you to thin the field. If you're heads up with the lagtard, just call him down with ace high or any pocket pair.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

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Play tighter. When you enter a pot, raise and let the lagtard reraise you to thin the field. If you're heads up with the lagtard, just call him down with ace high or any pocket pair.

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What do you mean by 'play tighter'? What opening hands do you propose I play (and do I raise or limp) with:
* 2+ limpers to me in MP/LP
* A raise in front of me (and any number of callers)
* Folds to me in EP/MP

Since the play after the flop tended to very expensive (everyone was trying to get HU with lagtard), give some examples of where it would be correct to call flop or turn raises with PPs and/or A-highs.

Thanks in advance,

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

"but don't even think about folding any pocket pairs preflop. Reason being that, with the maniac going crazy on just about anything & the rest of the table assuming any bet or raise is just an isolation attempt against said maniac, your implied odds on a flopped set go through the roof."

I disagree....your implied odds go down not up...you or 4 bettign before you even see the flop...that's 1/4 your implied odds....yes you make some back if the mainiac keeps raising(does he here its not been stated). on the big betstreets...nbut its not usely enough...

What these games become is higher stake poker with a smaller blind...Thus tighten up a lot...I think HPFAP the adivice is only play AA, KK, JJ, TT and AKS....other hands do have +ev..but very high variance (qjs) type hands. If your only reason for playing poker is to make money thes games are fine, but usely there boring...you have to play a lot less hands, and you can't wrok on any of your skills card reading is joke, ect..

The Psychology of poker has a pretty good chpeter on this as well...

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

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I disagree....your implied odds go down not up...you or 4 bettign before you even see the flop...that's 1/4 your implied odds....yes you make some back if the mainiac keeps raising(does he here its not been stated). on the big betstreets...nbut its not usely enough.

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Not only is the maniac going to put in at least a few raises postflop (that's kind of the definition of a maniac), but nobody else at the table is going to respect either his raises or your re-raises (you might just be trying to isolate on him, right?), at least not until the turn. So while yes, you end up paying more preflop to shoot for your set, you are going to more than make up for that postflop in a game like this.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

if pots are inflated/multi-way, this is the perfect time to LOOSEN up as oppose to tightening up. The big,multi-way pots are going to have huge overlays, so suited-connectors and middle pairs go up in value. This lets you play more pots. Your variance is gonna go up, but the pots are gonna be worth the payoff.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

Suited connectors, really? Do you think this is a good environment for suited connectors. They thrive on implied odds and passive play. Paying 4 SB's to see the flop with T9s is not a situation I like to put myself in. You know the maniac on your left is going to be raising postflop, so even with many bets going in preflop, you still may not have the implied odds to continue after the flop.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

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Suited connectors, really? Do you think this is a good environment for suited connectors. They thrive on implied odds and passive play. Paying 4 SB's to see the flop with T9s is not a situation I like to put myself in. You know the maniac on your left is going to be raising postflop, so even with many bets going in preflop, you still may not have the implied odds to continue after the flop.

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I'm certainly not advocating calling 4 bets cold with T9s. but limping up front and seeing how the action turns out is preferable to folding, when the pot almost a lock to be LARGE and multi-way. If it comes back to me capped 6 ways, of course I'm gonna put in 3 bets to win 25.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

[ QUOTE ]
if pots are inflated/multi-way, this is the perfect time to LOOSEN up as oppose to tightening up. The big,multi-way pots are going to have huge overlays, so suited-connectors and middle pairs go up in value. This lets you play more pots. Your variance is gonna go up, but the pots are gonna be worth the payoff.

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id say you have a point but not a very good one. with those types of hands you ussually wont make your hand until the turn.

however if you have a table full of sneaky players and one lag id accually ply j10 and qj suited for 2 or 3 bet preflop(becuase they will let him bet the flop and smooth call him giving you a cheap op to draw, then when they go for their raise on the turn and you hit look whos getting paid nasty style). but paying big preflop and on flop just to get a few bets from the remaining players on the turn and river probably dont have alot of ev.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

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So while yes, you end up paying more preflop to shoot for your set, you are going to more than make up for that postflop in a game like this.

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Are you sure about this? The math doesn't work for me.

The standard assessment is that you need about 9-1 or 10-1 to pay for your set, assuming you fold on the flop if you miss. You're 7.5-1 against hitting your set in the first place and sometimes your set won't win, especially in pots like this where people have odds to draw to gutshots and BDs.

So if you pay 4 bets PF to play a PP, you'll need a 20-22BB pot just to break even. The pots were big the other night, but "only" 15-20BB. I don't think, even in this game, that you could count on the huge pot you need to play 4 bets PF for a set.

BTW, this is even more true for speculative hands like suited connectors. With those, you'll often flop a draw and be forced to put in more bets on flop and turn hoping to connect. At least with a pair, you'll be able to get away with only 4 bets if you miss.

I hope I didn't give people the impression that the whole table was on tilt, because that wasn't the case. The whole table was after the maniac's money. Often we'd see 3-4 people to the flop for 4 bets, but not 6. And people weren't just playing awful hands; I think it was more that they were getting trapped in the scenario soweak describes:
EP limps with a decent hand.
MP limps with JJ intending to LRR
Hero limps with 98s
Maniac raises
EP calls
MP raises
Hero has a tough decision now. But he called intending to see a flop so he calls.
Maniac raises...
Etc.

I chose to avoid 98s and the like here but of course I'm not sure if it was the correct thing to do.

Re: Lagtard on my left and I\'m lost
 

It really depends on how much action people are giving you postflop, and whether they are committing to showdown early. If they play straightforwardly and non-showdown-y then you don't have to readjust at all. The hard part is if everyone tries blasting you out with Ace high to get HU on the flop or turn.