WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

So I've been playing quite a bit on WPEX poker. All the talk on the 2+2 internet forum and on the tables has been that the WPEX players are the best SS players on the net.

I believe they couldn't be further from the truth. Most players on that site are bad players. They aren't the classic 'calling station' bad players. They are more the 'cap while drawing, call and check with the second nuts' type bad players. I believe most tables are 30% good players, 20% fish, and 50% donkeys.

I am speaking purely of the 2/4 and 3/6 tables here. I've spent a bit of time at 5/10 and have to say play there is better - average internet games.

Rather embarrassingly, the last few weeks I haven't been making any money there. In fact, the last few weeks I have simply been haemoraging money at WPEX. Many of the beats I have taken are simply vomit-inducing. Most of the time I struggle to believe my own eyes. But I'm not here to bitch about that. I know full well poker players make money off other player's mistakes and, truth be known, I probably need to adapt my style of play for these unusual players.

I'm here to say this: It is my steadfast belief that WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players are the single worst players on the internet. I think they are slightly worse than players at the other non poker-tracker friendly sites. Is anyone with me on this?

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

I know a site that has worse players (and no I'm not talking about party)

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know a site that has worse players (and no I'm not talking about party)

[/ QUOTE ]

Not 2+2 I hope?

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

I got my ass handed to me at those games this Summer too and have moved on for now. Bad beats? Good Lord...enough for me to get me foil cap out.

I love the rakefree model but those games got the best of me. I'll get back to the 2/4 game there at some point but now I need to recoup a bit.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I love the rakefree model

[/ QUOTE ]

You can say that again. You can say it fifty thousand times again.

[ QUOTE ]
Bad beats? Good Lord...enough for me to get me foil cap out.


[/ QUOTE ]

Would you mind saying this fifty thousand times again too? The beats there can be legitimately soul destroying. The variance off the charts.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

I think the WPX games are tougher than your normal games on party or wherever. The players are very aggressive, and aggression masks alot of other flaws. And I think the standard, 2+2 TAG style doesn't really work all that well against the hyperaggressive, semi-thinking Swedish LAGs you find on WPEX. One thing I've been doing more and more is using calling as a weapon. Just let these monkeys bet again and again into your TPGK.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

mjkidd I agree with what you said as long you meant BPBK instead of TPGK.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
mjkidd I agree with what you said as long you meant BPBK instead of TPGK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, also strong A highs. I didn't want to give away all my secrets...

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

i've been getting the crap kicked out of me at WPEX the last month or so as well. I'm getting to the point of heading to another site because, while the rake back is amazing...i'm swiftly becoming convinced I could make more just from playing another site without rakeback.

I'm utterly sick of 2 and 3 outters. I've been playing poker seriously for over 2 years now and I've never had bad runs like I've had at WPEX. I'm normally a 5/10-10/20 player and thanks to WPEX I'm busted down to 2/4-maybe 3/6. Thanks WPEX...

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

playing breakeven poker at WPEX should net a 2/4 player close 3.5bb/100 more compared to party. If I was playing less than 10/20 I think playing at WPEX would be a must.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

I started a thread similar to this yesterday in this forum. I guess mine sounded a bit more whiney and pathetic, but I pretty much got ridiculed. So at least I feel validated in knowing that other people are having a tough time with these games.

I'm playing on Party now [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mjkidd I agree with what you said as long you meant BPBK instead of TPGK.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Oh, also strong A highs. I didn't want to give away all my secrets...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'll have to look into the virtues of calling. I'm still playing raise or fold against these players. Thanks for the advice guys. I know I have to change my play some way. The players there just aren't good players (at least not in the traditional sense). No sense in playing as if they are I suppose.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
The players are very aggressive, and aggression masks alot of other flaws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean to say that a player's aggression makes up for a lot of other flaws in that player's game? That is, aggression is the skill to have sometimes? Perhaps I was wrong to call these players bad? This 'bad' style is actually good in certain games?

Could it be that while most of these WPEX players obviously lack an understanding of all the poker skills (and noone will change my opinion on this), they are actually, incidentally, playing winning poker against the TAG schooled players??

This would explain both the appalling beats and the dramatic downswings I and others here have experienced exclusively at WPEX.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

I guess I mean that a very aggressive player is a lot harder to play against than a loose, weak, passive player. A loose, passive player is going to have to get very lucky to take your money; a loose, aggressive player can win when you fold, or when you pay off his strong hands every street with a weak hand. He's in control of the hand, and if he's undaunted by your raises, he's going to stay in control of the hand. His aggression makes him unpredicatible, which is always valuable in poker.

I think that some of the very aggressive WPEX players are skilled, and that makes them tough to play against. Most of them are one-trick ponies though. They are betmonkeys. If you check to them, they will bet. If they are first to act, they will bet. A lot of them have preflop standards, but once they enter a pot, they will bet bet bet. If you raise them with middle pair and they have nothing, they will fold. If you're behind, they'll three bet. You can't fold middle pair most of the time against these guys, so often calling every street with a marginal hand is the best line to take against these guys. It goes against the tight, aggressive philosophy that most people associate with "solid poker," but often meeting aggression with aggression is not the best strategy.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I mean that a very aggressive player is a lot harder to play against than a loose, weak, passive player. A loose, passive player is going to have to get very lucky to take your money; a loose, aggressive player can win when you fold, or when you pay off his strong hands every street with a weak hand. He's in control of the hand, and if he's undaunted by your raises, he's going to stay in control of the hand. His aggression makes him unpredicatible, which is always valuable in poker.

I think that some of the very aggressive WPEX players are skilled, and that makes them tough to play against. Most of them are one-trick ponies though. They are betmonkeys. If you check to them, they will bet. If they are first to act, they will bet. A lot of them have preflop standards, but once they enter a pot, they will bet bet bet. If you raise them with middle pair and they have nothing, they will fold. If you're behind, they'll three bet. You can't fold middle pair most of the time against these guys, so often calling every street with a marginal hand is the best line to take against these guys. It goes against the tight, aggressive philosophy that most people associate with "solid poker," but often meeting aggression with aggression is not the best strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you say here makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks a lot for the advice. I'm sure there are other things I must change about my WPEX game, but 'calling more' will be a good start.

I believe my problems at WPEX have been exacerbated by my recent inablity to use PT and PAHUD there. I generally 5 or 6 table and don't get to pay the attention I'd like to. If I had stats on these jokers I think I'd have known to call down more...

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

Whenever you're having trouble with your game, no matter what site, reducing the number of tables you're playing is a great start to fixing your game. Just play one or two table and really try to concentrate on the action. No browsing 2+2, no porn, just poker.

Also, don't overdo the calling. Betting and raising still has it's place as well.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

IIRC, GameTime+ works there or you could use PT's GameTime. Do you have PT set up to automatically request HHs?

On second thought, I have my doubts whether PT's GameTime would work in this situation.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

After playing at WPX for two weeks, I can safely say the style is unlike anything I've ever seen. But fortunately, I have not been the victim of 2 and 3 outers as much as many here seem to be. I agree with mjkidd, calling becomes a weapon (maybe not with TPTK), but with lots of hands you might raise/fold in smallish pots, because you've seen this particular opponent three-bet PF with T7s. Actually, I've just kind of broken even, but the rakeback is wonderful. I'm trying to adjust as well, but I really do think most 2+2 principles apply. The main thing is just to recognize what kind of situation you've gotten yourself into. If you raise with AQo PF and get 3-bet by some crazy who just loves to isolate, you are in for a ride. But if you hit anything, they are destined to pay you off with their agression.

Basically I want to say this: opponents put their money into pots for various reasons like value, folding opponents, calling to draws, thinking they might have the best hand. When you come across a smart and agressive but ignorant opponent who consitently bets primarily for fold equity and will 3-bet all your decent hands, c/c becomes theoretically correct, especially HU on bigger streets. Let them pay you, and don't sweat the bad beats.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe my problems at WPEX have been exacerbated by my recent inablity to use PT and PAHUD there. I generally 5 or 6 table and don't get to pay the attention I'd like to. If I had stats on these jokers I think I'd have known to call down more...

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're losing to them because, "...they're the worst players on the net," right?

Too bad there isn't a special forum for these whine threads...

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
But you're losing to them because, "...they're the worst players on the net," right?

Too bad there isn't a special forum for these whine threads...

[/ QUOTE ]

With respect, did you really read the thread??

From my original post...

[ QUOTE ]
[I've been on a downswing]...But I'm not here to bitch about that. I know full well poker players make money off other player's mistakes and, truth be known, I probably need to adapt my style of play for these unusual players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm losing to them because they're the worst players on the net? Er, no. Part of the reason I've been losing is because my game has serious flaws. I said that throughout the thread.

My post may not have had much content, but it spawned a half-interesting strategy discussion. Well, maybe it wasn't half-interesting. However, I learnt something.

If you had actually read the thread, you'd have realised this.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with mjkidd, calling becomes a weapon (maybe not with TPTK), but with lots of hands you might raise/fold in smallish pots, because you've seen this particular opponent three-bet PF with T7s.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of times I thing the case for calling against a chronic bluffer rather than raising with TP to be more compelling than with middle pair, particularly if you have a hand like KQ on a Q83 board. With a hand like that, you're less likely to be outdrawn that with say, A8. I guess you're giving up value when he as a weaker queen or an underpair he'd call a raise with, but if you're in position and he bets every street, I often like to just call him down, and sometimes throw in a raise on the river.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]


A lot of times I thing the case for calling against a chronic bluffer rather than raising with TP to be more compelling than with middle pair, particularly if you have a hand like KQ on a Q83 board. With a hand like that, you're less likely to be outdrawn that with say, A8. I guess you're giving up value when he as a weaker queen or an underpair he'd call a raise with, but if you're in position and he bets every street, I often like to just call him down, and sometimes throw in a raise on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might consider waiting until the river to raise more against the type of player who will continue to bluff with air. Of course if this same player is willing to raise/reraise with air, you should play aggressively in identical situations.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you had actually read the thread, you'd have realised this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I did. And, fwiw, you don't need to PM me that you responded, I'll keep track of threads that I contribute to.

The post I responded to included this:

[ QUOTE ]
I believe my problems at WPEX have been exacerbated by my recent inablity to use PT and PAHUD there. I generally 5 or 6 table and don't get to pay the attention I'd like to. If I had stats on these jokers I think I'd have known to call down more...

[/ QUOTE ]

So, what I actually should have said was, "...you're losing to them because you don't know how bad they are?" But, you say that you do know how bad they are.

My problem with threads like this is it's people saying, "I'm not the greatest player in the world, but..." and "I know my game has flaws, but..."; you're "admitting" that your game has problems, and then saying that the players that are beating you are playing so much worse than you are that they're actually coming around the other side to being better than you are? What kind of logic is that?

If you really believe there are flaws in your game that are bringing you down, then post about those. Don't post, "OMG I'm losing to the worst players on the planet, how could this possibly be happening?!"

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

The key to winning @ WPEX is adaptation. As limit games continue to evolve from the typical "calling too much and going too far with weak hands" type of players to the "raise or fold mentality" players, you have to adapt in order to win. This means that simple Small Stakes mechanical poker is not enough. You have to out-think your opponents.

Some of the tools that have been mentioned in this thread are all part of your arsenal. (ie. calling more and letting your opponent bluff his chips, playing trickier on the later streets, and mixing up how you play your big draws)

I find 2-4 and 3-6 games on WPEX to be extremely profitable with the rakeback. I just play them like I am playing 10-20 or 20-40.

In my opinion, these games are a glimpse into the future of online limit holdem.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
As limit games continue to evolve from the typical "calling too much and going too far with weak hands" type of players to the "raise or fold mentality" players

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think this is true???

I don't think SSHE will EVER have a shortage of passive fish. Players evolve and move up and new fish take their place. It's a circle of life thing.

And anyway I had 3 uber fish at my Party table last night so just based on that sample you're wrong! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

Did you play on party 2-3 years ago? If yes, do you notice a difference? I notice a huge difference. The games are still very easy to beat. The only thing that is changing is the tools you use to beat them.

The number of "new fish" is continuing to decline. Not to levels that you have to worry about, but you must be aware of it. If you don't continue to say on your toes with the trends in the poker economy, you could easily end up trying to figure out where your bankroll went.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did you play on party 2-3 years ago? If yes, do you notice a difference? I notice a huge difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Three years ago when there were 30K seats being filled at peak hours, the average table VP$IP's were in the upper 30's. Now, with 90K seats being filled during peak hours, the average table VP$IP's are in the upper 20's.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't post, "OMG I'm losing to the worst players on the planet, how could this possibly be happening?!"

[/ QUOTE ]

NH

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

I play wpex 2/4 almost exclusively.

I've had good results so far, but much of that stems from my specialization in headsup and very shorthanded play.

Try starting a table sometime. Learn to play headsup with that particular blind structure.

I've taken entire stacks from certain indivuduals on repeated occasions. Its true that I ran well, but I also ran over. Pick your spots on that site and you'll do fine.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

I can understand more what you are saying now.

If you're responding to that one particular post, I'm not sure what to say. I don't think it's inconsistent to say I know they're 'bad', yet I just don't know exactly/precisely how I can combat them. Maybe I'm wrong though. But anyway...

On the whole thread: Maybe I didn't express myself correctly. I was just presenting an observation on the SS WPEX players. That's all. Maybe I labelled them incorrectly as 'bad', but I think I did get some support here. These players are very unusual internet players. It wasn't my intention to post a 'whine thread'. Maybe I shouldn't have posted it on this forum/at all.

Also, I don't think I said these players are playing worse than me!

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

i think the toughest part about playing WPEX players is figuring out counter-strategy for someone who will call you down with bottom-pair or A-high, yet will also check-raise your top pair on the turn holding little more than a gutshot.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

The WPEX games are certainly wildly different then what you get at party. usually to keep me on my toes i pay 2 at WPEX and 2 at party, have to play 2 different styles at the same time.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
All the talk on the 2+2 internet forum and on the tables has been that the WPEX players are the best SS players on the net.

I believe they couldn't be further from the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't think I said these players are playing worse than me!

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

Just wanted to say great thread. Best discussion I have read on 2+2 in a while.

I also wanted to say that I think the strange style of games at WPEX has to do with the fact that there are 5-10 handed games going all the time. A 5 handed game plays different than a 6 or 7 and so on. Many WPEX players I think are not adjusting properly to the number of players at their table and think, for example, that the button is an auto-raise with any 2 even 10 handed. Just an example of adjustments they fail to make.

I love WPEX but you have to out-think your opponents, as another said. It isn't the site for those that are 100% tuned to 6max/PT/PAHUD games.

And I love the fact that they are "semi" PT compatible but not 100% PT/PA compatible.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

I would say that seat selection relative to your opponents is just as important as table selection when it comes to playing against your typical WSEX lag. When you use calling as a strategy (as per mjkidd's suggestion), you don't want to be out of position, checking and calling. A thinking lag is much harder to exploit when he has position on you.

Try not to passively play one "ABC" style at this site. I struggled with this site at first because the mindless multitabling that I was able to win with at Party just doesn't work here. I agree with what was said about focusing on the tables and not being distracted, as it takes a lot of attention to continually adapt your opponents.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I love the fact that they are "semi" PT compatible but not 100% PT/PA compatible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for going a little off topic, but is WPEX compatible with any other email service than Outlook? Can you get POP3 mail with anything else? (no I dont know what POP3 means) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

Try gmail from google. There is a thread on this some where on the PT forum. Post office protocol.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

A little help on "c/c" please...don't see it in the glossary link.

Thanks to the guy who started (and then didn't get all pissy when criticized) and all who contributed to this thread. I've been scratching my head about what I've seen going on at these tables and these posts have helped me think through some adjustments.

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

[ QUOTE ]
A little help on "c/c" please...don't see it in the glossary link.

[/ QUOTE ]

check/call

it means to check, and call if someone bets

Re: WTF is with WPEX 2/4 and 3/6 players??
 

I agree.

The "swede" style takes advantage of players with developing hand reading skills that are attempting to play well by making expert laydowns. Reread Ed Millers you fold too much post, and cut down the number of tables and enjoy the night.

If you are used to using PA/HUD, use this as an opportunity to pick up reads without it. Take some real notes. Knowing a guy check-raises the turn with a weak draw goes a lot further than a scan of a 1.5 Agg Freq.