How to Study?
 

Hi, I'm new to this forum/site and new to Hold'em. I've been playing the Bunny tables (.25/50) at Party Poker for about a month now. In that time I've read "Killer Poker Online" by John Vorhaus, "Hold'em Poker" and "The Theory of Poker" by David Sklansky along with "Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players" by Skansky/Malmuth and "Small Stakes Hold'em" by Miller/Sklansky/Malmuth, and have begun reading "Weighing the Odds in Hold'em" by King Yao.

The problem is that just reading them through doesn't necessarily make me any better a player. I play relatively break even now at Limit .25/.50, though overall I'm down. I can't seem to break even at the higher micro stakes games though, and it seems that I'm always playing against several multi-table players from Germany. In fact it seems the beginner tables at PP are loaded with Germans playing multiple tables! What's up with that?

Anyway, my question is how do I use these books to study? Obviously, just reading them through isn't going to turn me into a winning player. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

Re: How to Study?
 

other than reading materials, its just experience and reading/commenting on vast numbers of hands. same as learning most other skills.

breakeven is the first step. be happy with that. you can learn for free effectively. if you want an easier game, you can always find a site with nano limits to give you cheaper experience.

Re: How to Study?
 

Rather than read a whole bunch of books one time I would pick one book and read it a bunch of times and I would start with SSH.

Then play, post hands you have questions with here, and most importantly respond to other peoples hands. Don't be afraid to put what you think in your posts. If your wrong you will find out why and how to correct it.

Good Luck

Re: How to Study?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rather than read a whole bunch of books one time I would pick one book and read it a bunch of times and I would start with SSH.

Then play, post hands you have questions with here, and most importantly respond to other peoples hands. Don't be afraid to put what you think in your posts. If your wrong you will find out why and how to correct it.

Good Luck

[/ QUOTE ]

What House said.

Oh and just because Party calls them Beginner Tables doesnt mean they are filled with uberloose fish. I couldnt believe how tight those tables where (at 0.15/0.3 and up) when I played them. Once youve cleared your signup bonus there I suggest you find another site that has softer games. Party poker games arent all they are cracked up to be.....Paradise and Stars 0.25/0.5 games are nice and juicy and a good starting point - plus they have nano limit games that are just as good for learning at.

Try and learn whilst the stakes are cheap and get yourself a nice base before moving up.

welcome to the forums btw

Re: How to Study?
 

I still think the best start book would be Lee Jones book or Ed Miller's book over SSHE.

Unless you think like a 40 year old, egomaniac, like myself, I would really be careful with Vorhaus, I think he is awesome but most people have a hard time if they start thinking killer poker without some idea of preflop and post flop fundamentals.

Re: How to Study?
 

I started off with Lee Jones' book and I regret it. It's too passive. Any book can teach you which hole cards to play but very few books can show you why the TAG minus the AG is useless.

I don't mean to bag on your intelligence, but even though you have read all of those books I doubt you understand the reasoning behind 10% of what the books actually cover. This will come with re-reading and thousands upon thousands of hands.

I know my first time reading SSH my head was spinning. And when I got on the tables a few hours later my head was spinning even more. Read a little SSH, play a little. Read a little SSH, play a little.

You might want to start with Ed Miller's first book if you don't have a lot of hold'em experience. But once you grasp the basic concepts, I say kick the rest of those books to the shelf to collect dust until you have more experience under your belt, or the pages of SSH are ripped from paging through it so much. But even if that happens you may just want to buy it again.

Re: How to Study?
 

I just read HEFAP for about the 4th time. And this last time was definately the most productive than the others. I have come to the realization that book is better read slowly, in parts.

Poker is a complex game, and its strategies can be very situational. If you just read a book like SSHE, and then read through HEFAP or a NL book, the information can sort of "overwrite" each other in your mind. This is bad because you risk applying the wrong concepts at the wrong time, or just forgetting a previously learned concept altogether.

During this last reading of HEFAP, I would read it one section at a time. I think about what they are trying to tell me, and how does this compliment/conflict tactics from SSHE? Do I remember this tactic from the NL books too or is it limit specific? Etc... It's a little slower, but it's not too bad.

Learning Poker is a hobby all by itself.

Re: How to Study?
 

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Learning Poker is a hobby all by itself.

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Quoted for truth bro'!

Re: How to Study?
 

To OP; you've got some good advice here from others, and I have to agree with everybody about not trying to absorb too much at one time. Instead of trying to soak up as much poker knowledge as quickly as possible, try and soak up one or two specific ideas about poker thoroughly, and once you are successful at one thing then start applying other works into your game. I unfortuately do not have enough of a book referance to help in that aspect, but study these forums, and continue to focus on what is being discussed on these forums and be sure to express yourself and you will get help.

Re: How to Study?
 

I too am new to poker and have been reading lots of books and some of the print may finally have stuck to my figers.

The extra advice I would like to add is if you do not have Poker Tracker or Poker Office get one of them now.

I use PO and I find the replay facility extremely useful for study. Replaying over some of my rubbish plays really makes me want to improve!

Sometimes I even replay earlier hands while still at the table.

Good luck.

Re: How to Study?
 

Thanks for the advice. I realize that retention is an issue when reading so many books in such a short period. I have begun re-reading SSH, plus I have Poker Tracker and have used it, though it's not always clear what it's telling me. Anyway, I'm still under 2.5k raked hands, and another 1k tournament hands and only a month into play for cash, so I suppose I'll be learning quite a bit in the times to come.

I will be lurking and "grunching" from time to time so your likely to see me post again soon. Thanks again.

jv

Re: How to Study?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I started off with Lee Jones' book and I regret it. It's too passive. Any book can teach you which hole cards to play but very few books can show you why the TAG minus the AG is useless.

I don't mean to bag on your intelligence, but even though you have read all of those books I doubt you understand the reasoning behind 10% of what the books actually cover. This will come with re-reading and thousands upon thousands of hands.

I know my first time reading SSH my head was spinning. And when I got on the tables a few hours later my head was spinning even more. Read a little SSH, play a little. Read a little SSH, play a little.

You might want to start with Ed Miller's first book if you don't have a lot of hold'em experience. But once you grasp the basic concepts, I say kick the rest of those books to the shelf to collect dust until you have more experience under your belt, or the pages of SSH are ripped from paging through it so much. But even if that happens you may just want to buy it again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I've ever agreed with another post so much in my life. I too started out with Jones' book, which is the main reason I'm here. I'm trying to "relearn" how to play Hold 'Em. I'll never understand why so many people advocate that book. It merely teaches you how to be a VERY passive player. When you use Jones' teachings against aggressive opponents you get absolutely steamrolled. I can't say I lost a lot of many using Jones' methods, but I would routinely play for hours and either break even or lose a little bit.

I also agree with the difficulty with SSH. I've read that book and am re-reading it now and I'm still confused by a lot of it. I think a lot of that has to do with Sklansky being such a mathematical person, whereas I am not by any means. Jones' book is very easy to read and much easier to process than Sklansky's. I will give him that.

I'm still trying to get over the shock of just how different Sklansky and Jones' books are. Oftentimes what would be an automatic fold according to Jones is actually a raise to Sklansky. I only hope I don't confuse myself even more by adopting such a contradictory style.

Long story short though... if I can offer any advice it would be to not get bogged down with reading a ton of books. Or, if you are going to read a lot of books, find an author/style that you like and just read their books. It can be very confusing when you're reading multiple authors when you're starting out. The conflicting information, in my opinion, just isn't worth it.

Good luck and welcome!

Re: How to Study?
 

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I too started out with Jones' book, which is the main reason I'm here. I'm trying to "relearn" how to play Hold 'Em. I'll never understand why so many people advocate that book.

[/ QUOTE ]

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I also agree with the difficulty with SSH. I've read that book and am re-reading it now and I'm still confused by a lot of it.

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This is the crux.

Jones' book is THE one to start with if you've never read a poker theory book before. Just keep in mind you're going to want to read SSH as soon as you're fairly sure you understand WLLH.

And make sure you get the latest edition of WLLH - Jones has adjusted a lot of plays in the last update, and the SNG section he added is a great introduction to single-table donkaments.

WLLH is like kindergarten - learnings through play, to make sure you LIKE the game before you get serious about your education.

Then start reading SSH, and read it again and again - it's guaranteed you'll miss TONS the first couple of times through.

Re: How to Study?
 

Concentrate on SSH'em (Miller Sklansky, Malmouth) first. Better to read that book three times than to add TOP and HFAP. Then post hands in the forum and try to reply on other posters hands. Play a lot and think while u're playing. Don't multi-table.

Re: How to Study?
 

I wasn't very wise though when I first decided to tango with poker. I didn't "need" or want a book, and figured "We all have the same chances of getting all the cards, how much would a book help?" So after blowing a few buy-ins I decided to take my professional friend's advice, and I bought SSHE. As implied, it was the first poker book I ever read, and I consider it the perfect book to start out with. It completely transformed my thinking of the game forever. Pot odds, outs, EV, tactics etc... These are things, important things that I hadn't really heard of before (I started playing for real money shortly after I started playing poker at all, so I wasn't very exposed). The book tells you the strengths and weaknesses of all the various families of hands, tells you how to assess the value of your hands. I got all excited from this awesome knowledge like a math teacher who gets overjoyed when he tells the class how a big nasty equation boils down to a 1 or 0 after teaching the class one new concept.

I don't think SSHE is too hard, and I think there was a lot of thought that went into it which just so happened to make the introductions properly inform you as to the nature of the game and gambling in general. It works excellently as a first book, and since you'll be using most of those tactics for a very very long time and some of the concepts for your entire career, I don't see any reason why anyone should put on "training wheels" before they read this book.

If poker is a swimming pool, SSHE lets you hop right into the shallow end and start swimming. If you tip toe down the stairs slowly, it's just going to take you that much longer to get comfortable with the water. Just hop on in, and if you apply what you learn correctly and consistently, someday you'll have the option to swim into the deep end too.

Re: How to Study?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I too started out with Jones' book, which is the main reason I'm here. I'm trying to "relearn" how to play Hold 'Em. I'll never understand why so many people advocate that book.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I also agree with the difficulty with SSH. I've read that book and am re-reading it now and I'm still confused by a lot of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the crux.

Jones' book is THE one to start with if you've never read a poker theory book before. Just keep in mind you're going to want to read SSH as soon as you're fairly sure you understand WLLH.

And make sure you get the latest edition of WLLH - Jones has adjusted a lot of plays in the last update, and the SNG section he added is a great introduction to single-table donkaments.

WLLH is like kindergarten - learnings through play, to make sure you LIKE the game before you get serious about your education.

Then start reading SSH, and read it again and again - it's guaranteed you'll miss TONS the first couple of times through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I see what you're saying now. You're right, Jones' book is better for easing into the game(in my opinion). I did manage to get the most recent version as well. I hear it's much better than the first. In some ways I wish I hadn't read his book though because I feel like I have to totally retrain my brain at this point.

P.S. Is that THE John Candy in your avatar? Or just someone who is his spitting image?

Re: How to Study?
 

[ QUOTE ]
've read "Killer Poker Online" by John Vorhaus, "Hold'em Poker"

[/ QUOTE ]
I read this book shortly after reading sshe, HFAP, and TOP. To be honest, I don't thinl Killer poker online is worth the pages it is written on. Its a completelty basic introduction to online poker and has very little actual playing advice. If you want a pep talk, fine read it, otherwise I would steer clear.

Re: How to Study?
 

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. Is that THE John Candy in your avatar? Or just someone who is his spitting image?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't recognize Harry from Harry's Sex Shop - The guy with the snake on his face?* (fast forward to 5:07).









* - yes, it's THE late, great, former Toronto Argonauts co-owner John Candy.

Re: How to Study?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
P.S. Is that THE John Candy in your avatar? Or just someone who is his spitting image?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't recognize Harry from Harry's Sex Shop - The guy with the snake on his face?* (fast forward to 5:07).









* - yes, it's THE late, great, former Toronto Argonauts co-owner John Candy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weird. I responded to this earlier but it didn't show up. I didn't realize that was Candy during his SCTV days. That explains the sveltness. He's hands down my favorite comedic actor of all-time.

Re: How to Study?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
've read "Killer Poker Online" by John Vorhaus, "Hold'em Poker"

[/ QUOTE ]
I read this book shortly after reading sshe, HFAP, and TOP. To be honest, I don't thinl Killer poker online is worth the pages it is written on. Its a completelty basic introduction to online poker and has very little actual playing advice. If you want a pep talk, fine read it, otherwise I would steer clear.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read all three John Vorhause Killer books and it really put a lot of things in perspective for me, which probably explains why I am so nuts.

A lot of the advice in the book is what got me to learn how to be aggressive, the insight I gained on player types from these books, from POP and a few others has been greatly instrumental in the development of my approach to poker and the style of play that I have adopted successfully to date.

Apparently the shoe is going to drop sometime but I still stand by the principles discussed in the Vorhaus books.