\"Outplaying\"
 

"Outplay"

Everytime I read that word in a post I cringe. Everytime I hear someone say it in a live game I throw up in my mouth. "Wow, you got outplayed there!!" The majority of poker players nowadays think folding T-high after someone w/ 9-high pushes and shows his bluff is getting outplayed. Hardly.

Outplaying is used almost exclusively as a synonym for bluffing. "You have the button! See a flop and try to outplay him!" Oh, you mean take a flop and bluff if I miss? Everyone thinks they're a brilliant post-flop player. They want to be a Gus Hansen or a Daniel Negreanu. The sad news for most of these people is this: You're simply not good enough to make mediocre calls pre-flop in order to "outplay" someone. There's a reason cash players salivate when a "tournament pro" sits down in their game.

Outplaying is more than bluffing. In tournaments, especially online, it is a very rare occurence that you are deep enough to pull off some sort of elaborate bluff. So what is outplaying? Its getting your chips in when you're ahead. Its folding when you know you're beat. Its not getting in a pot to begin with because the situation just isn't favorable. Its check/calling a hyper-aggro w/ a mediocre hand. Its hand-reading. Its pot-control. There's more to outplaying than raising.

So if outplaying is all of these things, why would you respond to a hand history with "call and outplay on the flop?" If by outplay you mean make the best possible decisions based on the information I have available to me, then OK, but I plan on doing that every hand I play.

Here is an example of the type of post I can't stand.

[ QUOTE ]
pf is fine, although sometimes I will only call here & look to outplay after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
This was regarding a hand where Hero with T1225 and TT raised to 200 after an UTG limper (T1365) at 25/50 blinds. The obsession with "outplaying" someone translates into leaving chips on the table that should be in your stack. This reasoning for calling is unacceptable. Is UTG unusually tight? OK,, then call because you likely have a hand that is behind but has huge implied odds. Is UTG usually aggro and the limp is suspect? OK, then you're calling because you again have a hand that has huge implied odds against a holding that may be looking for a limp/reraise. However, to say that sometimes you just call and look to outplay on the flop is just wrong. Without any reads, you have what rates to be the best hand. By not raising, you are getting outplayed by yourself. You're leaving extra chips on the table. Put a raise in there...you have the 5th best starting hand. None of this "call and outplay on the flop" bs.

This isn't meant as a personal attack on the poster of the quote above. This is just a line of thinking that needs to fall by the wayside. Concetrate on making sound decisions - reasoned decisions. If you want to take a flop, indulge the forum. Tell us your plan on different flops, etc. Just keep in mind that there's more to outplaying than raising/bluffing. Folding is just as admirable.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

I concur. I think the word is used to liberally in the place of "bluff". However, when, if, Iever use it I use it in the context of.... "put villian on a range and fire at flops that this hand misses"... which is sorta covered in your post/rant.
~Justin

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

hurraaaay for your post! I've thought this for a long time. I have a running joke in some of the local homegames I play in. When I'm behind or simply fold my hand preflop I'll sometimes say "I'm going to outplay you and fold my hand."

Outplaying someone often means folding. But it means so many things more as you well state in your post.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

being able to "outplay" an opponent usually involves a level of skill in narrowing his hand range that we simply don't have / isn't available online with the donks that call with Ax and third pair and gutshots to the dumb end and whatnot.
I find it's not so much used as a synonym for "bluff" as it is a euphemism for "I'm afraid of committing too many chips preflop".

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

I am referring to slightly higher buyins with players you are somewhat familiar with. It becomes much easier to put people on smaller ranges, thereby knowing when you are completely skulled and when you can fairly safely apply pressure.
~Justin

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

Let the flaming begin!

I posted the quote, and no, you didn’t take it out of context. I meant what I said. TT is one of the hardest hands to play THAT SHOULD BE PLAYED, IMO. Limping sometimes/raising sometimes is read dependent and a necessity to keep your opponents guessing. Given the absolute scarcity of reads in most posts in this forum, you must have some confidence in you 2 cards AND your playing ability (experience). If no one calls behind me, then I have position and (most of the time) more OPTIONS of how to continue my action. I can use my read, position, and stack to formulate a line of play that results in me winning or bailing at the most efficient ROI. If someone does call behind me, then my options are FAR more limited and can let go of this holding without investing too many chips, unless I flop a set or better.

In this example, I am looking to OUTPLAY a weaker opponent who limps UTG. I am not bluffing, but I am showing some prudent judgment that there are others still to act. Bottom line, IMHO, is that if you do not have the confidence to outplay post flop most of your opponents, then you are severely limited in your options at the table.

If you still don't see this line, then I suggest you try a live MTT sometime.

I welcome all constructive criticism either by post or PM.

Here\'s what happens when you try to outplay someone
 

This thread gives me a perfect excuse to post this hand from last night's 3r 10k. Little bugger to my left was a Gus Hansen wannabe, calling my raises every time and trying to take away the pot, occasionally flipping over absolute garbage to show how smart he was. Needless to say, his stack had been dwindling. (We each arrived at the table with about 10k, and you can see where the stacks are now.)
With this hand I decided to let him try to "outplay" the rest of his chips over to me.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter

UTG+1 (t29150)
MP1 (t18013)
MP2 (t12310)
Hero (t18610)
CO (t4843)
Button (t7649)
SB (t14215)
BB (t6457)
UTG (t8972)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t700</font>, CO calls t700, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t1600) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t800</font>, Hero calls t800.

Turn: (t3200) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (t3200) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t3000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t5000</font>, CO folds.

Final Pot: t11200

The best part is that his little river bluff left him 250 chips behind-- the ol' "hanging on to cab fare" bluff. Couldn't have made it easier on me. (OK, maybe this belongs in BBV, but it's such a good example of what happens when a doofus tries to "outplay" his opponents.)

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am referring to slightly higher buyins with players you are somewhat familiar with. It becomes much easier to put people on smaller ranges, thereby knowing when you are completely skulled and when you can fairly safely apply pressure.
~Justin

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, I agree with you. I wasn't responding directly to your comment but to the idea of "outplaying" as it gets thrown around in general.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

I sat with the best. And I won.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't remember.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

Its kind of hard to outplay aces full

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its kind of hard to outplay aces full

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yeah, getting the second nuts made it easier, but I checked the flop knowing he would bluff with anything, and I bet the river small knowing he would think it was a weak attempt at a bluff and he could raise me off the hand.
So, see, I'm a [censored] genius. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

[/ QUOTE ]

So I was never really sure about this, but didn't Chan fold preflop for one bet getting like a bazillion to 1? It was limit right?

Steve

P.S. I really like the OP.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let the flaming begin!

I posted the quote, and no, you didn’t take it out of context. I meant what I said. TT is one of the hardest hands to play THAT SHOULD BE PLAYED, IMO. Limping sometimes/raising sometimes is read dependent and a necessity to keep your opponents guessing. Given the absolute scarcity of reads in most posts in this forum, you must have some confidence in you 2 cards AND your playing ability (experience). If no one calls behind me, then I have position and (most of the time) more OPTIONS of how to continue my action. I can use my read, position, and stack to formulate a line of play that results in me winning or bailing at the most efficient ROI. If someone does call behind me, then my options are FAR more limited and can let go of this holding without investing too many chips, unless I flop a set or better.

In this example, I am looking to OUTPLAY a weaker opponent who limps UTG. I am not bluffing, but I am showing some prudent judgment that there are others still to act. Bottom line, IMHO, is that if you do not have the confidence to outplay post flop most of your opponents, then you are severely limited in your options at the table.


[/ QUOTE ]

At no point did I say it is good or bad to have confidence in your own postflop play. I did, however, say the vast majority of players overestimate their ability. In addition, my way of outplaying a weak player that limps UTG is by raising when I have a better hand. Limping is horrible. You're just promoting a limpfest that will leave you out of position a good amount of time w/ a hand that is likely to flop at least 1 overcard. Your raise will typically get you HU w/ a weak player, w/ position, w/ the best hand. I'm not going to continue to discuss this hand specifically, I think not raising w/out any reads is a glaring mistake.

[ QUOTE ]

If you still don't see this line, then I suggest you try a live MTT sometime.


[/ QUOTE ]

I acknowledged in my original post that calling is correct under certain circumstances. However, w/out any reads in an online tournament w/ a typically fast-paced structure, this line doesn't rate well at all.

Also, I'm not sure why you had to throw in a personal attack (?), but I've played 3 10k tournaments this past year. You're trying to compare apples and oranges (online fast structures vs live slow structures) in an attempt to throw an insult in my direction. Thats hardly necessary.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

[/ QUOTE ]

So I was never really sure about this, but didn't Chan fold preflop for one bet getting like a bazillion to 1? It was limit right?

Steve

P.S. I really like the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

what a great movie, lol

congrats on the pca win

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

[/ QUOTE ]

So I was never really sure about this, but didn't Chan fold preflop for one bet getting like a bazillion to 1? It was limit right?

Steve

P.S. I really like the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

what a great movie, lol

congrats on the pca win

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks!

Steve

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

This is fantastic post. The flip side seems to be that people forget you can outplay people preflop as well. If the CO open raises and you push from the button with KQ (instead of say calling 1/6-1/7 of your stack) there are ALOT of hands your opponent will fold that he should call with. 22-66, AJ-A2. Guess what, you've outplayed your opponent.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget he outplayed Marcel Luske as well.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

Yeah it was 300/600 limit. We aren't sure if it was pre or postflop, but Mike 4 bet chan and he folded.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

My favorite is when two players have middle pairs and it ends up all in, and if the hands had been reversed, they would've been played exactly the same.

Then the lower pair catches a set and the guy who got unlucky with the bigger pair bemoans "outplaying" the smaller pair, but getting unlucky.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
The majority of poker players nowadays think folding T-high after someone w/ 9-high pushes and shows his bluff is getting outplayed. Hardly.



[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. This bit stuck out to me because it emphasizes a variation on the theme of results-oriented thinking. It is exceedingly likely that 9-high played the hand wrong and 10-high played the hand correctly, given the information each had at the time.

The question is whether 9-high's push is correct versus 10-high's range (doubtful) and whether 10-high's fold is correct versus 9-high's range (almost certainly, unless the pot is huge relative to the bet).

The point is that what actually happened is that 10-high outplayed 9-high. The hands they happen to hold aren't material. Assuming that the pot odds weren't there to justify the bluff (which is equivalent to assuming that 10-high gets to the same spot with a real hand frequently enough) if 9-high makes that play 1000 times, he loses a lot of chips overall. Outplaying him means calling with the hands that are ahead of his range enough to beat the odds he lays you, which includes folding the hands that don't. Folding the best hand isn't a glamorous way to outplay your opponent, but that is often exactly what you are doing when you fold the best hand. This becomes clear if you think in terms of ranges.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is fantastic post. The flip side seems to be that people forget you can outplay people preflop as well. If the CO open raises and you push from the button with KQ (instead of say calling 1/6-1/7 of your stack) there are ALOT of hands your opponent will fold that he should call with. 22-66, AJ-A2. Guess what, you've outplayed your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it when 'outplaying' involves a preflop push. It just makes me feel like everything is right in the world

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

[/ QUOTE ]

So I was never really sure about this, but didn't Chan fold preflop for one bet getting like a bazillion to 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was not preflop! Look at the film, there were cards on the table.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is fantastic post. The flip side seems to be that people forget you can outplay people preflop as well. If the CO open raises and you push from the button with KQ (instead of say calling 1/6-1/7 of your stack) there are ALOT of hands your opponent will fold that he should call with. 22-66, AJ-A2. Guess what, you've outplayed your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

He isn't making a mistake folding 22 if your push range is QQ-22, AK-AJ, KQ. What is interesting here is that KQ belongs in the same push range as big pairs because 22-66 has to fold. This is because KQ does much better against 22-66 than 22-66 does against bigger pairs. Of course, the value of pushing JJ comes from getting calls from 99 because you push frequently enough with 77, 88, AK, AQ, KQ. And if everyone is playing optimally, it all comes out even in the end. But when you're opponents making exploitable mistakes like raising 22/A4 when stack sizes are such that they'll often face a reraise push they can't call, you can "outplay" them with hands like KQ.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
because 22-66 has to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take it this isn't for $20NL?

Re: Here\'s what happens when you try to outplay someone
 

[ QUOTE ]
the ol' "hanging on to cab fare" bluff

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost spat my drink out when I read this. nh.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

It was very nice of you to leave him with 250 chips....or were you intent on just slapping him round a bit

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
It was very nice of you to leave him with 250 chips....or were you intent on just slapping him round a bit

[/ QUOTE ]
He left himself the 250 with his river bluff. I reraised to try to get them out of him, but he folded.
Part of me wanted to just call, to see what he was trying to Gus me with. Could have been a good laugh.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

I see..i admit it would have been very funny to see what he had.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

I agree with your idea, but I think your missing a big part of the game if thats what you believe. Although you captured the grasp of what alot of people now a days "try" to do by betting after a flop where people in front of them check...many players do it very well (not just DN and other top pros). If you have an excellant read on a player and have position on them, especially in a live game, you can take alot of their money just by betting when you know they don't have something. And the best part is...you can always hit a big flop and suck them in. However, this is just a small part of "outplaying" someone. I agree with you that when you truly "outplay" someone, you do it over the course of a session by slowly working into their stack and making better poker decisions when your in the hand with them. More often than not, however, you SHOULD find yourself making at least a play or two in position when you feel you have a good read. I think you will find yourself experiencing less success if you take that play out of your arsenal, even in a ring game.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

I blame all this outplaying because of moneymakers LEGENDARY bluff to farha which really makes me want to throw up.

Although im fine with the outplayers because they are paying off my good hands many times compared to the one time i folded the best hand to them.

Correction, i thank moneymaker for his "if all else fails just push"

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

The phrase "outplay after the flop" has always amused me, as it is usually a euphemism for "bluff them into folding", which often leads into "hopelessly dumping chips with a crap hand".

I "outplay" my opponents all the time by folding utter crap before the flop. I sometimes "outplay" my opponents by folding on the flop when I whiff.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
because 22-66 has to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take it this isn't for $20NL?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you mean. The meaning of my line there is that if someone raises with 22 and faces a reraise push from someone who will reraise push any pair, AK-AJ, KQ, the person holding 22 would be correct to call if he knows that he is facing KQ. But even when he is facing KQ, he doesn't know it, and he can't call because he doesn't have odds against the range.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

Outplaying is more than bluffing. In tournaments, especially online, it is a very rare occurence that you are deep enough to pull off some sort of elaborate bluff. So what is outplaying? Its getting your chips in when you're ahead. Its folding when you know you're beat. Its not getting in a pot to begin with because the situation just isn't favorable. Its check/calling a hyper-aggro w/ a mediocre hand. Its hand-reading. Its pot-control. There's more to outplaying than raising.

This is the best single paragraph written in this forum in well over a year.

-Scott

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Outplaying is more than bluffing. In tournaments, especially online, it is a very rare occurence that you are deep enough to pull off some sort of elaborate bluff. So what is outplaying? Its getting your chips in when you're ahead. Its folding when you know you're beat. Its not getting in a pot to begin with because the situation just isn't favorable. Its check/calling a hyper-aggro w/ a mediocre hand. Its hand-reading. Its pot-control. There's more to outplaying than raising.

This is the best single paragraph written in this forum in well over a year.

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you much

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
because 22-66 has to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take it this isn't for $20NL?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you mean. The meaning of my line there is that if someone raises with 22 and faces a reraise push from someone who will reraise push any pair, AK-AJ, KQ, the person holding 22 would be correct to call if he knows that he is facing KQ. But even when he is facing KQ, he doesn't know it, and he can't call because he doesn't have odds against the range.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean I honestly don't believe most people think like this.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is where the whole "outplay" got its true birth into poker speak. Matt Damon, thank you. And by the way, you cant outplay people who dont fold. Learned that lesson the hard way, several times.

-Rich

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

I just read EuroRounders........hilarious.

Re: \"Outplaying\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
My favorite is when two players have middle pairs and it ends up all in, and if the hands had been reversed, they would've been played exactly the same.

Then the lower pair catches a set and the guy who got unlucky with the bigger pair bemoans "outplaying" the smaller pair, but getting unlucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

LL NL PS:
Many limpers, I in BB w/t 45s checks.
Flop 459r
I bet, one raise from MP LAG &gt;&gt;&gt; money goes in otf.
Board ends up 459Kx and he has K9o for higher 2 pair.
I go: nh, very lucky (steaming)
he go: whaddaya mean lucky, I outplayed you!!!
I go: no
Bystander go: no, he had 2 pairs on the flop and you got lucky
fool goes: whatever, I won so I outplayed him

*I pray he doesn't leave the table soon...which he did.*