Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

I'm just reviewing this month's stats and have noticed i'm bleeding hard in the blinds. It's a relatively short sample (7500 hands or so) but there's clear indication i'm losing considerable cash from BB.

In fact, my general stats are:

Folded SB To Steal: 91.27
Folded BB To Steal: 63.52

I'm losing 0.4 BB/hand in Big Blind
I'm winning 0.05 BB/hand in Small Blind

Can you guys post some thoughts on blind defense theories/strategies for SSNL? Perhaps some position stats?

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

if you lose one or two big hands from the BB this will skew your results over such a tiny sample.

Also play more hands !


now thats out of the way.. over my last 30k im at (.09) from the bb and (.13) from the sb. with a Fold SB of 85 and fold BB of 80.

you are defending too much. depending on stakes you should be 3betting more or folding more.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

don't worry about defending your blinds. imo it doesn't apply to cash games to any relevant extent. its best to play very tight from the blinds and avoid playing oop w/o solid hands.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

It's normal to be losing money from the BB. Here are my 50NL 6max stats:

Losing (0.29) in the BB
Winning 0.03 in the SB


Folded to SB Steal: 85.22
Folded to BB Steal: 81.21

Losing in the BB is normal though you don't want it to get too excessive. Defending too often could also lead to you losing even more in these positions.IMO your folding to BB steal should be a little higher than it is. I wouldn't worry about it too much, your stats aren't all that abnormal.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
don't worry about defending your blinds. imo it doesn't apply to cash games to any relevant extent. its best to play very tight from the blinds and avoid playing oop w/o solid hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

people play poorly from the blinds, i find blind v blind battles to be one situation where people play like [censored]. Similar to reraised pots.

A multitabling tag who is raising your bb every orbit needs to be dealt with. Simply giving up your blinds isnt the answer, but being more careful with/how to go about defending them is important.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't worry about defending your blinds. imo it doesn't apply to cash games to any relevant extent. its best to play very tight from the blinds and avoid playing oop w/o solid hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

people play poorly from the blinds, i find blind v blind battles to be one situation where people play like [censored]. Similar to reraised pots.

A multitabling tag who is raising your bb every orbit needs to be dealt with. Simply giving up your blinds isnt the answer, but being more careful with/how to go about defending them is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this advice. A concrete way of dealing with this is the following logic:

When an aggressive loose player raises you from the CO or Button, then you should not only rereaise with your strong hands but also OCCASIONALY with your small pairs and suited connectors.

I stole this logic from a much better smarter player. When you do decide to defend them.

The most common lines are for marginal hands are:
lead flop.
check-call flop. lead turn.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't worry about defending your blinds. imo it doesn't apply to cash games to any relevant extent. its best to play very tight from the blinds and avoid playing oop w/o solid hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

people play poorly from the blinds, i find blind v blind battles to be one situation where people play like [censored]. Similar to reraised pots.

A multitabling tag who is raising your bb every orbit needs to be dealt with. Simply giving up your blinds isnt the answer, but being more careful with/how to go about defending them is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't talking about blind battles. My advice was given in regard to defending against aggresive LP raisers. This is a bad idea. Defending against them (if their at all competent) is unneccesary and stupid imo.

That TAG does not have to be dealt with. Are you crazy? You want to force yourself to play OOP against decent players? get real.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't worry about defending your blinds. imo it doesn't apply to cash games to any relevant extent. its best to play very tight from the blinds and avoid playing oop w/o solid hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

people play poorly from the blinds, i find blind v blind battles to be one situation where people play like [censored]. Similar to reraised pots.

A multitabling tag who is raising your bb every orbit needs to be dealt with. Simply giving up your blinds isnt the answer, but being more careful with/how to go about defending them is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this advice. A concrete way of dealing with this is the following logic:

When an aggressive loose player raises you from the CO or Button, then you should not only rereaise with your strong hands but also OCCASIONALY with your small pairs and suited connectors.

I stole this logic from a much better smarter player. When you do decide to defend them.

The most common lines are for marginal hands are:
lead flop.
check-call flop. lead turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very transparent and I destroy the people who try to do this vs me.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

if you fold your bb every time i raise the button, you are losing 8.3bb/100 just from that.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you fold your bb every time i raise the button, you are losing 8.3bb/100 just from that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't fold every single time. I will reraise occasionally but it is only for the purpose of doing it often enough to let him know I 3bet w/ a wider range then big pairs and AK. Nothing to do w/ defending blinds. I pretty much never call though.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

"In Particular, don't worry about "defending" your big blind... ...if several players have limped into the pot, make a big raise occsionally as a semi-bluff. When you do this, choose your WORST hands, stuff like Jc4s, to do it with."

No Limit Hold'em Theory and Practice - DS & EM

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

You are defending your BB WAY too much.

This might be the worst "statistic" I've ever heard:

[ QUOTE ]
if you fold your bb every time i raise the button, you are losing 8.3bb/100 just from that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Quoting TWP, "this is NLHE. Blinds don't matter."

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you fold your bb every time i raise the button, you are losing 8.3bb/100 just from that.

[/ QUOTE ]Not true, unless his BB is constantly folded around to you...which it wont be. The best answer is to just fold, imo. Until you are comfortable playing OOP vs a LP raiser, just play hands where you are that LP raiser.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't worry about defending your blinds. imo it doesn't apply to cash games to any relevant extent. its best to play very tight from the blinds and avoid playing oop w/o solid hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

people play poorly from the blinds, i find blind v blind battles to be one situation where people play like [censored]. Similar to reraised pots.

A multitabling tag who is raising your bb every orbit needs to be dealt with. Simply giving up your blinds isnt the answer, but being more careful with/how to go about defending them is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this advice. A concrete way of dealing with this is the following logic:

When an aggressive loose player raises you from the CO or Button, then you should not only rereaise with your strong hands but also OCCASIONALY with your small pairs and suited connectors.

I stole this logic from a much better smarter player. When you do decide to defend them.

The most common lines are for marginal hands are:
lead flop.
check-call flop. lead turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very transparent and I destroy the people who try to do this vs me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show us a hand you got to showdown where you "destroyed" some one.

OOP is tough, but not entirely easy for someone in position either, when the blind comes after you re-raising and betting.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't worry about defending your blinds. imo it doesn't apply to cash games to any relevant extent. its best to play very tight from the blinds and avoid playing oop w/o solid hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

people play poorly from the blinds, i find blind v blind battles to be one situation where people play like [censored]. Similar to reraised pots.

A multitabling tag who is raising your bb every orbit needs to be dealt with. Simply giving up your blinds isnt the answer, but being more careful with/how to go about defending them is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this advice. A concrete way of dealing with this is the following logic:

When an aggressive loose player raises you from the CO or Button, then you should not only rereaise with your strong hands but also OCCASIONALY with your small pairs and suited connectors.

I stole this logic from a much better smarter player. When you do decide to defend them.

The most common lines are for marginal hands are:
lead flop.
check-call flop. lead turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very transparent and I destroy the people who try to do this vs me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show us a hand you got to showdown where you "destroyed" some one.

OOP is tough, but not entirely easy for someone in position either, when the blind comes after you re-raising and betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does getting to showdown have to do with anything? By destroy them I mean constantly raise their retarded weak leads and they fold very often. Eventually they taper down ro stop altogether. This has the added benefit of disguisng my big hands which I raise in a similar fashion and tilting them.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't worry about defending your blinds. imo it doesn't apply to cash games to any relevant extent. its best to play very tight from the blinds and avoid playing oop w/o solid hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

people play poorly from the blinds, i find blind v blind battles to be one situation where people play like [censored]. Similar to reraised pots.

A multitabling tag who is raising your bb every orbit needs to be dealt with. Simply giving up your blinds isnt the answer, but being more careful with/how to go about defending them is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this advice. A concrete way of dealing with this is the following logic:

When an aggressive loose player raises you from the CO or Button, then you should not only rereaise with your strong hands but also OCCASIONALY with your small pairs and suited connectors.

I stole this logic from a much better smarter player. When you do decide to defend them.

The most common lines are for marginal hands are:
lead flop.
check-call flop. lead turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very transparent and I destroy the people who try to do this vs me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show us a hand you got to showdown where you "destroyed" some one.

OOP is tough, but not entirely easy for someone in position either, when the blind comes after you re-raising and betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does getting to showdown have to do with anything? By destroy them I mean constantly raise their retarded weak leads and they fold very often. Eventually they taper down ro stop altogether. This has the added benefit of disguisng my big hands which I raise in a similar fashion and tilting them.

[/ QUOTE ]

May be against weak players. It's as easy for them to stack you as it is for you once they get the initiative.

Ok, forget about show down. Show me a hand where it is very clear that you "destroyed" some one. I don't believe that it's that easy with out having a hand yourself.

Any one can play a good hand in position. You would love a BB re-raising your big hands, but it's tough to play when you have Q9s and board comes A9Kr after raise, re-raise. How will you make a move on such a board with air ?

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't worry about defending your blinds. imo it doesn't apply to cash games to any relevant extent. its best to play very tight from the blinds and avoid playing oop w/o solid hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

people play poorly from the blinds, i find blind v blind battles to be one situation where people play like [censored]. Similar to reraised pots.

A multitabling tag who is raising your bb every orbit needs to be dealt with. Simply giving up your blinds isnt the answer, but being more careful with/how to go about defending them is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this advice. A concrete way of dealing with this is the following logic:

When an aggressive loose player raises you from the CO or Button, then you should not only rereaise with your strong hands but also OCCASIONALY with your small pairs and suited connectors.

I stole this logic from a much better smarter player. When you do decide to defend them.

The most common lines are for marginal hands are:
lead flop.
check-call flop. lead turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very transparent and I destroy the people who try to do this vs me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show us a hand you got to showdown where you "destroyed" some one.

OOP is tough, but not entirely easy for someone in position either, when the blind comes after you re-raising and betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does getting to showdown have to do with anything? By destroy them I mean constantly raise their retarded weak leads and they fold very often. Eventually they taper down ro stop altogether. This has the added benefit of disguisng my big hands which I raise in a similar fashion and tilting them.

[/ QUOTE ]

May be against weak players. It's as easy for them to stack you as it is for you once they get the initiative.

Ok, forget about show down. Show me a hand where it is very clear that you "destroyed" some one. I don't believe that it's that easy with out having a hand yourself.

Any one can play a good hand in position. You would love a BB re-raising your big hands, but it's tough to play when you have Q9s and board comes A9Kr after raise, re-raise. How will you make a move on such a board with air ?

[/ QUOTE ]

For once Fly is correct. Leading weak is one of the most exploitable and worst tactics to use as an OOP player.

And please, stop with the ego. Everyone seems to think that playing OOP is only difficult for weak players. This is simply false, and the sooner you learn that playing OOP vs. solid players sucks, yes, EVEN FOR YOU, the better off you will be.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

The check/call, lead line is definitely exploitable, I've got tons of hands where I opened from the CO with 84s or whatever, the flop was 322 and I got called, then I bluff raise the turn and he has to fold his 66 etc.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't worry about defending your blinds. imo it doesn't apply to cash games to any relevant extent. its best to play very tight from the blinds and avoid playing oop w/o solid hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

people play poorly from the blinds, i find blind v blind battles to be one situation where people play like [censored]. Similar to reraised pots.

A multitabling tag who is raising your bb every orbit needs to be dealt with. Simply giving up your blinds isnt the answer, but being more careful with/how to go about defending them is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this advice. A concrete way of dealing with this is the following logic:

When an aggressive loose player raises you from the CO or Button, then you should not only rereaise with your strong hands but also OCCASIONALY with your small pairs and suited connectors.

I stole this logic from a much better smarter player. When you do decide to defend them.

The most common lines are for marginal hands are:
lead flop.
check-call flop. lead turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very transparent and I destroy the people who try to do this vs me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show us a hand you got to showdown where you "destroyed" some one.

OOP is tough, but not entirely easy for someone in position either, when the blind comes after you re-raising and betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does getting to showdown have to do with anything? By destroy them I mean constantly raise their retarded weak leads and they fold very often. Eventually they taper down ro stop altogether. This has the added benefit of disguisng my big hands which I raise in a similar fashion and tilting them.

[/ QUOTE ]

May be against weak players. It's as easy for them to stack you as it is for you once they get the initiative.

Ok, forget about show down. Show me a hand where it is very clear that you "destroyed" some one. I don't believe that it's that easy with out having a hand yourself.

Any one can play a good hand in position. You would love a BB re-raising your big hands, but it's tough to play when you have Q9s and board comes A9Kr after raise, re-raise. How will you make a move on such a board with air ?

[/ QUOTE ]

For once Fly is correct. Leading weak is one of the most exploitable and worst tactics to use as an OOP player.

And please, stop with the ego. Everyone seems to think that playing OOP is only difficult for weak players. This is simply false, and the sooner you learn that playing OOP vs. solid players sucks, yes, EVEN FOR YOU, the better off you will be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, I know how OOP sucks. I often call in the BB when I should be re-raising. I don't know how to play it right. That said, why would they play weak after re-raising ? He made it seem like it's just too easy to destroy the BB after re-raising. To me, on the button, a c-bet from a BB with only 40% of his stack behind looks quite intimidating.

In short, I suck at playing the BB and the button when BB re-raises [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Just trying to understand the pitfalls.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

For the next week, if the (CO or) BTN opens and everyone else folds to you in the BB(/SB), never call. Fold or reraise.

This should help you get a hang of it (and is basically how I play anyways).

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the next week, if the (CO or) BTN opens and everyone else folds to you in the BB(/SB), never call. Fold or reraise.

This should help you get a hang of it (and is basically how I play anyways).

[/ QUOTE ]

I gotta try that. Thanks

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't worry about defending your blinds. imo it doesn't apply to cash games to any relevant extent. its best to play very tight from the blinds and avoid playing oop w/o solid hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

people play poorly from the blinds, i find blind v blind battles to be one situation where people play like [censored]. Similar to reraised pots.

A multitabling tag who is raising your bb every orbit needs to be dealt with. Simply giving up your blinds isnt the answer, but being more careful with/how to go about defending them is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this advice. A concrete way of dealing with this is the following logic:

When an aggressive loose player raises you from the CO or Button, then you should not only rereaise with your strong hands but also OCCASIONALY with your small pairs and suited connectors.

I stole this logic from a much better smarter player. When you do decide to defend them.

The most common lines are for marginal hands are:
lead flop.
check-call flop. lead turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very transparent and I destroy the people who try to do this vs me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. It is very transparent. And at higher levels, you'll get blown off your hands often. I bluff raised someone on the turn yesterday when they used this line. At the same time, I use it all the time at NL200 and I find it very successfull, over a relatively small sample size.

I'm just trying to keep it simple. And this lines were espoused by a very good high-limit player. Although, she also remarked that it was transparent.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

[ QUOTE ]

Yep, I know how OOP sucks. I often call in the BB when I should be re-raising. I don't know how to play it right. That said, why would they play weak after re-raising ? He made it seem like it's just too easy to destroy the BB after re-raising. To me, on the button, a c-bet from a BB with only 40% of his stack behind looks quite intimidating.

In short, I suck at playing the BB and the button when BB re-raises [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Just trying to understand the pitfalls.

[/ QUOTE ]

We were talking about the check-call/lead turn, and the lead flop line, with moderate hands, and how both of those lines stink against good players. We weren't talking about re-raised pots.

In re-raised pots, position becomes, ironically, less important. From the BB especially, if you re-raise a monster, then lead, as long as stacks are about 100 BB, it should be pretty easy to play. If you are just CBing something that whiffed, that should be easy too. Some WA/WB situations like KK(or AQ) on A-high flops can be tricky, but there's lots of hands like that on 2+2 every day.

The biggest mistake re-raisers make is raising too small. Even when you re-raise with 55, you've gotta re-raise big. You don't want them thinking about implied odds. This is because often even solid players will call with stuff like T9s for "implied odds", but then when the flop "sort of" hits them, they'll forget about that and suddenly decide to float the flop with one pair/weak draw. That can cost them a lot of money when you hold AA, but you unfortunately don't always have AA, and you don't want them floating a Q96 flop when you hold 88.

Re: Stats Discussion: Defending Blinds
 

Good discussion since I posted this last night! Thats what I was looking for.

Yes I play my BB quite a bit in stats, but often times it's to a minraise or something stupid (50NL on Party) so this stat is skewed.

Assuming a loose button raiser (Att to Steal > 50%) and you're in the BB, what kinds of hands do you re-raise, what kinds of hands do you call with?