You make the call
 

2/3 $100 buyin at the bike. 4 players in the pot preflop with multiple raises finally capped by 3 of them going all in. Waiting for seat 7 to decide whether or not to call when seat 6 slides her cards across the table to seat 9 - who's not in the hand - for him to look at her cards. Seat 7 objects and asks for a floorman for a ruling.

**Note: seat 6 and 7 have the larger stacks and would have a side pot. The other 2 all in's have much smaller stacks.**

Now....you make the call. Floor rule to follow.

Re: You make the call
 

If Seat 6 is all-in, then no harm done. But ask her not to do it again, it upsets people.

Then tell Seat 7 to hurry up, we want to play another hand after this one.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
2/3 $100 buyin at the bike. 4 players in the pot preflop with multiple raises finally capped by 3 of them going all in. Waiting for seat 7 to decide whether or not to call when seat 6 slides her cards across the table to seat 9 - who's not in the hand - for him to look at her cards. Seat 7 objects and asks for a floorman for a ruling.

**Note: seat 6 and 7 have the larger stacks and would have a side pot. The other 2 all in's have much smaller stacks.**

Now....you make the call. Floor rule to follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I understand this correctly seat 6 is already all-in. Then she shows her cards to one player not in the hand before seat 7 (the only remaining player yet to act) has made his decision. As "youtalkfunny" stated elsewhere there is no real harm done; if anyone gains an advantage it is seat 7 (who may get a tell from seat 9). The hand plays on.

Of course the floor should have seat 6's hand automatically shown to all players (after seat 7 acts) since she did violate the "show one, show all" rule. That said, this is relatively minor infraction, compared with some of the stuff I've seen lately (not just at the Bike).

~ Rick

Re: You make the call
 

Assuming seat 9 is not in the hand, I give seat 6 a warning not to be a tard while making no attempt to hide my disgust and then allow play to continue and make sure the hand is shown to all at the end of play.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming seat 9 is not in the hand, I give seat 6 a warning not to be a tard while making no attempt to hide my disgust and then allow play to continue and make sure the hand is shown to all at the end of play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Waiting for seat 7 to decide whether or not to call when seat 6 slides her cards across the table to seat 9 - who's not in the hand - for him to look at her cards. Seat 7 objects and asks for a floorman for a ruling.

**Note: seat 6 and 7 have the larger stacks and would have a side pot. The other 2 all in's have much smaller stacks.**

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you missed the note Rick. I think this question is much more interesting than it seems because seat 6 can be pulling an angle here to block action on the side pot post flop.

What's the rule if seat 7 waits for the flop and possible side pot and seat 6 is forced to show her cards, which she'll have to do?

I think the rule should still apply to prevent this type of blocking angle. Seat 6's hand is exposed and play continues.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Waiting for seat 7 to decide whether or not to call when seat 6 slides her cards across the table to seat 9 - who's not in the hand - for him to look at her cards. Seat 7 objects and asks for a floorman for a ruling.

**Note: seat 6 and 7 have the larger stacks and would have a side pot. The other 2 all in's have much smaller stacks.**

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you missed the note Rick. I think this question is much more interesting than it seems because seat 6 can be pulling an angle here to block action on the side pot post flop.

What's the rule if seat 7 waits for the flop and possible side pot and seat 6 is forced to show her cards, which she'll have to do?

I think the rule should still apply to prevent this type of blocking angle. Seat 6's hand is exposed and play continues.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? No. You would show Seat 6's hand AFTER the hand is over OR after all betting is complete whichever comes first. Seat 7 doesn't get to see Seat 6's hand while they both have chips. If Seat 9 was in the hand and still had chips, then yes.

Strong warning for seat 6, expose hand at the end, let's get on with it seat 7.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Waiting for seat 7 to decide whether or not to call when seat 6 slides her cards across the table to seat 9 - who's not in the hand - for him to look at her cards. Seat 7 objects and asks for a floorman for a ruling.

**Note: seat 6 and 7 have the larger stacks and would have a side pot. The other 2 all in's have much smaller stacks.**

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you missed the note Rick. I think this question is much more interesting than it seems because seat 6 can be pulling an angle here to block action on the side pot post flop.

What's the rule if seat 7 waits for the flop and possible side pot and seat 6 is forced to show her cards, which she'll have to do?

I think the rule should still apply to prevent this type of blocking angle. Seat 6's hand is exposed and play continues.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post flop action?

I guess you missed this part:
[ QUOTE ]

4 players in the pot preflop with multiple raises finally capped by 3 of them going all in.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you missed the note Rick. I think this question is much more interesting than it seems because seat 6 can be pulling an angle here to block action on the side pot post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

She is giving away information to a player not in the pot. To clarify, that information (her hand) must be made available to all players when the hand is over.

Now her act may be a real or fake "look, I have a good hand" tell, that's for the other player still in the hand with chips to decide. That part is gamesmanship, deciding if tells are present and whether they are true or false. I don't like the fact she showed another player (even though he is not in the hand), but if anything it works against her if the last remaining player is astute.


[ QUOTE ]
What's the rule if seat 7 waits for the flop and possible side pot and seat 6 is forced to show her cards, which she'll have to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

As clarified above, she wouldn't have to show until after the entire hand is over.


[ QUOTE ]
I think the rule should still apply to prevent this type of blocking angle. Seat 6's hand is exposed and play continues.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. Only after the hand must seat 6's hand be exposed.

Anyway, there are lots of angle's out there. But most "acting", e.g., lying about one's hand (or maybe not), trying to throw off false tells and so on are not angles. They are all part of the fun of poker, what I call gamesmanship. An example of an angle would be pretending to fold by pushing ones cards a little forward (enough to get a read) then retrieving them to call or raise when facing a bet.

I tend to be quiet when in a hand, but I love it when my opponents talk or do this stuff. If I occasionally mistake a false tell for a real one, then I need to get better at my reads.

~ Rick

Re: You make the call
 

wow live players are nits.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
2/3 $100 buyin at the bike. 4 players in the pot preflop with multiple raises finally capped by 3 of them going all in. Waiting for seat 7 to decide whether or not to call when seat 6 slides her cards across the table to seat 9 - who's not in the hand - for him to look at her cards. Seat 7 objects and asks for a floorman for a ruling.

**Note: seat 6 and 7 have the larger stacks and would have a side pot. The other 2 all in's have much smaller stacks.**

Now....you make the call. Floor rule to follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dealer should grab seat 6's hand and muck it, since she was sliding it forward in the general direction of the muck (especially if this is a 9 handed table). Warn seat 6 to protect her hand in the future.

Re: You make the call
 

Players passing cards to each
other doesn't sound right to me.

I don't allow it if I'm dealing.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dealer should grab seat 6's hand and muck it, since she was sliding it forward in the general direction of the muck (especially if this is a 9 handed table). Warn seat 6 to protect her hand in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seat 6's hand should not be mucked by the dealer. Seat 6 is already in for all action so her hand deserves protection.

An example of a time to potentially call a floor and perhaps have a hand called dead is when a player facing a bet does something to indicate that they are "discarding their hand". Unfortunately the LA rules are somewhat poorly written and open to interpretation in this area.

For example (excerpts from a rulebook that s/b identical to the Bike's):

5. Your hand is declared dead if:
c. You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you.
e. In stud, you turn your upcards facedown or mix your upcards and downcards together when facing a bet, and by doing so, create action.

In c. above most working floors do not have a common (i.e. unified) understanding of what "causing another player to act behind you" or "create action" means. For example, in a heads up pot on the river you are facing a bet and throw your hand forward a few inches. Your opponent remains still but you believe you see a sigh of relief and think he is bluffing. Should you be able to pull your hand back and now call? The e. rule causes similar misunderstandings.

42. If you throw your cards facedown with a forward motion, you indicate you are passing and risk losing the pot.

IMO this rule needs to be clarified to include the words "when the action is on you" or something more refined. If action is complete, you should never be penalized for retrieving a hand thrown forward that is discernible. I also think this rule should be expanded to include turning cards face up when facing a bet. This is common in NL, but the turning is often accompanied by "a little bit" of forward motion, so it can work as an angle and arguments follow.

~ Rick

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow live players are nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

elaboration please?

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow live players are nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

elaboration please?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read some of the advice in this thread. "Muck the hand?"

wtf

The Decision
 

Almost all of you got it right. The Floor was called and he gave seat 6 a warning and told seat 7 to make a decision..call or fold.

As an FYI, almost all the rest of us at the table were berating seat 7 for his obvious angle shooting and we told him this is what the floor would rule.

Nice going everyone.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dealer should grab seat 6's hand and muck it, since she was sliding it forward in the general direction of the muck (especially if this is a 9 handed table). Warn seat 6 to protect her hand in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seat 6's hand should not be mucked by the dealer. Seat 6 is already in for all action so her hand deserves protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being somewhat facetious, although I don't think it would be a bad thing for the dealer to grab the cards and ask seat 6 if she is folding. For some reason, this card sharing thing always rubs me the wrong way. Kind of like rabbit hunting. Just play poker and talk about your bad beats / great plays later. WTF is she trying to accomplish by sharing her hand before the action is even complete? Nothing good can come of this and she should be discouraged from doing this in the future.

I guess I am a nit.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
As clarified above, she wouldn't have to show until after the entire hand is over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Vapor lock. TY.

Re: You make the call
 

I'd say seat 7 should be happy. This is usually an indication of a strong hand a lower limit games. He now has additional information to make his decision on.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow live players are nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

elaboration please?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read some of the advice in this thread. "Muck the hand?"

wtf

[/ QUOTE ]

that and who the hell cares if she shows her hand to someone. seat 7 is prob taking forever, she's bored, and wants something to do. 99% of the time this isnt an angle and only harms her. just stfu and play cards -- trying to get a "floor decision" here is so nitty, just call or fold.

Re: You make the call
 

Not that I'd call the floor in this situation, or that I think there's any backing for it in the rules, but I do feel like if you're passing cards to another player and you're not playing Anaconda, you no longer have a hand. It just seems like the sort of hanky-panky with the cards that wouldn't be allowed.

Showing your hand to another player is one thing...actually releasing your hand into another player's custody seems like something else altogether.

But again, I'm more interested in getting to play another hand after this one. I can sit quietly and nit internally.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow live players are nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

elaboration please?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read some of the advice in this thread. "Muck the hand?"

wtf

[/ QUOTE ]

that and who the hell cares if she shows her hand to someone. seat 7 is prob taking forever, she's bored, and wants something to do. 99% of the time this isnt an angle and only harms her. just stfu and play cards -- trying to get a "floor decision" here is so nitty, just call or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree. Once I had a guy show his hole cards to a girl who was all in, which I have no problem with as they weren't discussing anything. ....Then she says "here" and shows him her cards! :O

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
It just seems like the sort of hanky-panky with the cards that wouldn't be allowed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yesterday I was browsing Dirty Poker in a bookstore. I found the anecdote about a "mucking team" at the Bike particularly fascinating. A man and a woman would imperceptibly (except to our author) switch cards so that one of them would end up with the best of the four cards.

I certainly don't think that's what's going on in the OP -- seeing as how one of the two participants no longer had cards! -- but from the cardroom's perspective it's probably good practice to nip this idea of passing cards around in the bud. Declaring hands dead for a first offense is heavy-handed, of course, but for the dealer to tell the players to play their own hand and wait until after the hand for post mortem seems reasonable.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course the floor should have seat 6's hand automatically shown to all players (after seat 7 acts) since she did violate the "show one, show all" rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

In another situation, when I suggested that the dealer should take the initiative here to protect SOSA, I took the consensus to be that I was out of line for asking the house to support my nittiness.

Re: You make the call
 

If the person seeing the cards could still bet postflop, it would be SOSA as soon as the flop betting was done, since he has information the other players in the hand don't. Since no one in the hand is getting information during the hand that could benefit them for the rest of the hand, it's SOSA after the hand is over.

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course the floor should have seat 6's hand automatically shown to all players (after seat 7 acts) since she did violate the "show one, show all" rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

In another situation, when I suggested that the dealer should take the initiative here to protect SOSA, I took the consensus to be that I was out of line for asking the house to support my nittiness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Violation of "Show one player your cards, you must show everyone your cards (i.e., show one show all)" can range from an innocuous and meaningless offense (e.g., a player shows his neighbor who has already folded that he just got dealt his tenth lousy hand in a row) to something that is seriously unfair and often pisses people off. For example, player at the other end of the table makes a big bet on a big pot and his opponent (holding a fair hand) ends up folding. He shows the cards he bet big to a couple players at that end of the table, but his opponent doesn't get to see them. Both violate SOSA, but I wouldn't call anyone a nit who wants SOSA enforced in the later instance (and would in the first).

Worse violation of SOSA I've ever seen was during a huge pot in NL. Stacks for all players were deep and the pot was big BTF. On the flop player A had already bet big, Player B raised big, and Player C now goes into the tank. Before he folds he clearly and deliberately shows his hand to Player B and then mucks it!

I wasn't in the hand but spoke up since it was so out of line. What annoyed me the most was Player C was an experienced player had that he had some sort of association with the Poker Players Alliance (hopefully not anything to do with etiquette and fairness). Ever since then I can't take the PPA seriously.

~ Rick

Re: You make the call
 

Point taken about differences in gravity. That's something I should learn to be more perceptive about.

[ QUOTE ]
Before he folds he clearly and deliberately shows his hand to Player B and then mucks it!


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeeesh... So in that case, the dealer should catch the cards before letting them be mixed in the muck and expose them to the table, right? Or if it's essential that Player A must ask for that information, at the very least the dealer should be holding those cards aside.

Was that dealer on-the-ball?

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Point taken about differences in gravity. That's something I should learn to be more perceptive about.

[ QUOTE ]
Before he folds he clearly and deliberately shows his hand to Player B and then mucks it!


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeeesh... So in that case, the dealer should catch the cards before letting them be mixed in the muck and expose them to the table, right? Or if it's essential that Player A must ask for that information, at the very least the dealer should be holding those cards aside.

Was that dealer on-the-ball?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here was the first time I told the story. If memory serves he tossed them in the muck with a spinning motion so they were quickly embedded. But the dealer could have said something when he was showing, but it doesn't surprise me that he didn't.

Most dealers in LA do a good job on technical issues (e.g., pitch, reading hands) but don't do much to control etiquette. There are many reasons and they could do better but the big problem is it is -EV for them. For example if they do they might run into the managers friend, and they lose even if they are right. Many also have problems with the language, as do the customers.

In any event, I like gamesmanship and the fun stuff, but certain types of breeches of etiquette and angles are going to hurt the NL games as the action inevitably tightens up. Worth a long post I don't have time for now.

~ Rick

Re: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you're passing cards to another
player and you're not playing Anaconda,
you no longer have a hand.
It just seems like the sort of hanky-panky
with the cards that wouldn't be allowed.

Showing your hand to another player is one thing...actually releasing your hand into another player's custody seems like something else altogether.

[/ QUOTE ]

My sentiments exactly.

Doesn't "protecting your own hand" include not
releasing it to another player across the table?