($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t400 with t25 antes (4 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

CO (t1022)
Hero (t1888)
SB (t6210)
BB (t4380)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="red">CO raises to t997 (All-in)</font> Hero ???

Blinds are freaky tight. Giving walks, not push/raising, etc.

BB might make an obligatory call if I step aside. I'm debating if it's correct to ask for BB's assistance by simply calling, or push over here and gambool with shortie. Basically, do I WANT BB's help? Obviously if shortie doubles+ through with me, I'm hurting...if he doubles through without me (I fold), meh...

(I do call a push over behind if I call)

What's your move?

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

instafold. if BB folds i berate him via chat.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

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instafold. if BB folds i berate him via chat.

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I think that OP is doing the right thing here by considering this spot. I don't think this is an instafold. I think there is reason to fold here, and reason to call. Clearly if hero is the BB this is an easy call. Given that you think this is an instafold, I'm interested in your reasoning.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

Do you have any reads on villain?

You specified that SB and BB were insanely tight. Is this because of bubble or in general? If because of bubble, then what about passively maintaining the bubble (i.e., not making this call) to continue stealing from the blinds (remember: they will always be on your left even when NOT in blinds, which is great for you). If they are generally tight, then why (essentially) risk your tournament life on a hand where villain's ace high has you beat already? Continue building your stack through them and raise your chances of placing higher ITM, IMO. It seems like they are trying to maintain their stack sizes, so take advantage of this and before they know it, you will be right there with them.

Situationally (i.e., independant of reads), IMO, this is a fold.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

I guess I should clarify my previous post, since I can't find the edit button...

I think it's a fold. Even with a read, at best you are 5:3 favorite (I think those are the right odds), which I don't think is good enough to risk your stack.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

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Do you have any reads on villain?

You specified that SB and BB were insanely tight. Is this because of bubble or in general? If because of bubble, then what about passively maintaining the bubble (i.e., not making this call) to continue stealing from the blinds (remember: they will always be on your left even when NOT in blinds, which is great for you). If they are generally tight, then why (essentially) risk your tournament life on a hand where villain's ace high has you beat already? Continue building your stack through them and raise your chances of placing higher ITM, IMO. It seems like they are trying to maintain their stack sizes, so take advantage of this and before they know it, you will be right there with them.

Situationally (i.e., independant of reads), IMO, this is a fold.

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The fold here is correct, even if SB and BB have been playing tight, unless BB is impressively stupid he will call, and SB very well may limp also.....
In regards to folding for the reason of prolonging the bubble in order to steal from the blinds, you really are not in the correct shape to do that, this can be implented when chip leader, or when there is a stack (or 2) that have less than one BB (( BOTH of these situations allow you to PWN either the entire table, or certain other players at the table depending on position of the stacks.... )) your stack is too short to take advantage of the bubble even with tight players acting behind you, the bottom line is taht they have you covered WELL and right here you should be focusing more on making it ITM then on moving up to 2nd place or higher

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

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The fold here is correct, even if SB and BB have been playing tight, unless BB is impressively stupid he will call, and SB very well may limp also.....
In regards to folding for the reason of prolonging the bubble in order to steal from the blinds, you really are not in the correct shape to do that, this can be implented when chip leader, or when there is a stack (or 2) that have less than one BB (( BOTH of these situations allow you to PWN either the entire table, or certain other players at the table depending on position of the stacks.... )) your stack is too short to take advantage of the bubble even with tight players acting behind you, the bottom line is taht they have you covered WELL and right here you should be focusing more on making it ITM then on moving up to 2nd place or higher

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I take back my first post. I got too sneaky/impractical for my own good. Nice post manchild.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

Yep, you do want BB's help, so no pushing here. Without doing the calcs I'd say it's close between calling and folding, shortie would have to be on a big range (including K2+) to call though.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

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Yep, you do want BB's help, so no pushing here. Without doing the calcs I'd say it's close between calling and folding, shortie would have to be on a big range (including K2+) to call though.

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LOL. What are you talking about? Why isn't the range any ace, any pair, any two broadway not enough? If you know villain is only pushing any pair + any ace, then you could think that folding is close/not enough.

There is the potential for a huge equity transfer here. Not thinking about these spots is a huge leak. Certainly BB should call, but his motives are clear, in that he is waiting for a hand.

Now if you make the decision to play (which I'm specifically not commenting on)what makes this the difference between a call and a shove is if BB is a donkey, IMO, if he's a donkey, it's a shove. Last thing we want is someone who is going to bluff into a dry side pot, or bet middle pair, essentially committing us to only seeing 3 cards instead of 5.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

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Yep, you do want BB's help, so no pushing here. Without doing the calcs I'd say it's close between calling and folding, shortie would have to be on a big range (including K2+) to call though.

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LOL. What are you talking about? Why isn't the range any ace, any pair, any two broadway not enough? If you know villain is only pushing any pair + any ace, then you could think that folding is close/not enough.


There is the potential for a huge equity transfer here. Not thinking about these spots is a huge leak. Certainly BB should call, but his motives are clear, in that he is waiting for a hand.


Now if you make the decision to play (which I'm specifically not commenting on)what makes this the difference between a call and a shove is if BB is a donkey, IMO, if he's a donkey, it's a shove. Last thing we want is someone who is going to bluff into a dry side pot, or bet middle pair, essentially committing us to only seeing 3 cards instead of 5.

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Hi, commenting on your 3 paragraphs (I don't know if they were all adressed to my post).

1: We obviously need someone to do calcs for some ranges. However, without doing them my feel tells me we need to be ahead of shorties range to play here, I could be wrong of course, these potential 3-way things are tricky...

2: ...which is why I agree we should think about these spots [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

3: I don't think the BB-donkey-factor is very important here. If you don't want to be bluffed out on the flop then don't fold. However, I think BB's presence in the hand is very much wanted.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

I only skimmed the replies but I'm confused about why people are considering calling. Even if bb folds and co steals the blinds, they are about to hit him again, and you'll still have some fold equity when it comes back around to you. I mean, unless you KNOW you have co dominated, its got to be a fold?

that said, if you do decide that you are ahead of co's range and want to play, I think a push &gt;&gt;&gt; a call. You'll be getting very good odds on the hand with dead money from the blinds, and a thinking bb could easily move you off your hand post flop which would be disastrous for you. To compare, would you just call AK here? how about TT?

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

None of the remaining are "donkeys", in the traditional sense. The blinds here are just both tight and passive. Seemingly both content on letting me &amp; shortie dictate the pace. CO is a decent player.

Like with most hands, you can fudge ranges enough to make this a call/push. I have NO idea what to do with the guys behind, considering I think I might want the help (????).

The "call" is break even @ 25% push (22+,A2+,KTo+,K8s+,QTs+). With his read on the blinds and with eating the the BB next himself, I personally think that even a 30+% range is reasonable.

As Scuba mentioned, the EV swings here are huge.

Ahead or not, losing the "race" HU would be devastating. If I push, there is a VERY good chance the blinds would fold all but the top hands...including BB here.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

I'd call - because I suck at racing. Once called, I'm folding like never. The point being that I want shortie to beat both hands, not stick around long enough to hope BB's flop rep holds.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

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The "call" is break even @ 25% push (22+,A2+,KTo+,K8s+,QTs+).

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Good post, but let me comment on the above statement. This "call" (effectively a push) is only breakeven compared to the scenario where hero and both blinds fold. And this scenario obviously would suck for hero since shortie would take the blinds at no contest. In reality SB and/or BB usually make the call here thus giving hero's fold a higher EV.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

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Hi, commenting on your 3 paragraphs (I don't know if they were all adressed to my post).

1: We obviously need someone to do calcs for some ranges. However, without doing them my feel tells me we need to be ahead of shorties range to play here, I could be wrong of course, these potential 3-way things are tricky...



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I don't think your feel is doing you justice. I also don't think that thinking about this as 3 way is really that important a decision for whether to play the hand or not. Once you decide to play the hand, then you can decide if you want to "invite" any of the blinds in.

I am at work, so I'm just guessing, but I think the bottom end of the range for some reasonable tight range for hero is (-0.3%) EV (let's say any pair, any ace for example). Once we begin to loosen the range, the EV escalates rapidly. For example, I would be suprised if any pair, any ace, any two broadway is less than +0.5% EV.

Anyway, the reason I think your feel is off is because you're not considering the amount of dead chips along with the substantial equity transfer if shorty steals.

If we are also thinking about sitting out and shoving any two cards from UTG next hand (which is likely our best option if the bubble still exists), we're now shoving into current villain (who OP has said is the only good player at the table). I don't care much for this as the next best option, fwiw. We have a lot of card equity here in this hand.

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

I think I'd call and invite BB in. The problem is what do we do if the flop comes A/J and BB bets? What if it's 87K and he checks? Do we push then?

Re: ($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in
 

I'd call and invite BB in, and hope to check it down.

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I think I'd call and invite BB in. The problem is what do we do if the flop comes A/J and BB bets? What if it's 87K and he checks? Do we push then?

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If I have any piece of the flop, I'm calling BB's push. The only way we lose is if shortie beats us both. If BB thinks he has a good enough hand to bet rather than check down, and I have a piece myself, the odds that shortie has an even better hand or will suck out are quite slim.