2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

How's my line here. Donk-bettor hasn't been out of line. He called down my turn cr a couple hands ago when I turned a flush out of the big blind. He had top pair, medium kicker.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

What's with the raise/fold? Call the 3-bet and call a river blank (raise or lead out if you improve). You've got TPGK on a fairly innocent board. Sure there are some cards that you don't want to see hit on the river but heads up with your hand isn't such a bad spot to be in.

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

I play it the same way.

If MP2 were to fold to the first turrn bet, then I might just call the turn bet and reevaluate on the river, but with another possible drawing hand out there, I like the raise.

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

preflop: jko (haha, pun) is not strong enough to be raising here. and i dont understand the point of the raise/fold. you could see a showdown for the same price, and your not going to run him off, so id just call down against this opponent.

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

I play it like you did. Counting hand combos, there's 10 possible sets and 39 possible 2-pair (or close to that), and you're up against one or the other. You can probably discount the 2-pair combos by about a third since BB is likely folding crap like 94o.

So let's say that 40% of the time you're draing dead to a set. 60% of the time you're drawing to a bigger 2 pair and average 6 outs. So you have about an 8% chance of drawing out on him and, getting 10-1, need about a 9% chance to call the turn bet.

Given that you can't collect extra bets on the end, because you can never be confident you're ahead and this is a decent fold.

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

I like it. If he just calls the raise are you taking a free showdown if a blank falls on the river and he checks to you?

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
How's my line here. Donk-bettor hasn't been out of line. He called down my turn cr a couple hands ago when I turned a flush out of the big blind. He had top pair, medium kicker.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I play it the same way. Sure sometimes we have him beat, but more times than not you are going to be looking at a small weirdly played flop set, 99 or J9. AJ is a weird one to look out for in this spot too. Save the extra bets.

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

Should you wait for a better position at the table but the button to isolate with KJo?

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should you wait for a better position at the table but the button to isolate with KJo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice....

And depending on the opponent's stats, it wouldnt matter what hand you had if they have a tendancy to play weak postflop and fold to C-bets a lot.

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play it the same way. Sure sometimes we have him beat, but more times than not you are going to be looking at a small weirdly played flop set, 99 or J9. AJ is a weird one to look out for in this spot too. Save the extra bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain to me why we would want to raise here if we are facing a better hand? This seems to contradict the FTOP.

Buzz

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play it the same way. Sure sometimes we have him beat, but more times than not you are going to be looking at a small weirdly played flop set, 99 or J9. AJ is a weird one to look out for in this spot too. Save the extra bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain to me why we would want to raise here if we are facing a better hand? This seems to contradict the FTOP.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't know that we are facing a better hand until he 3bets us here.

I like the way you played this hand. With MP2 hanging around, I like the turn raise with the plan on taking a free showdown unimproved (or maybe even improved, depends, not sure).

If it had been heads up on the turn, I take my chances and just call down, betting the river if checked to.

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

The only problem with this line is you are disregarding all the 54o,54s,94s,95s,j5s,j4s, and 78d he may have called in the BB plus possible weirdly or over played AA,QQ, A9d that you have seeable outs against.

As played with the MP2 already calling a bet on the turn then there is only 1 reason to raise the turn - for value.

I usually whimp out and call from the turn down precisely because I don't want to be three bet as I am a showdown monkey - especially when multi-tabling.

Basically your line is on the basis that he won't 3 bet the turn with worse than top two pair.

A donk 3 bet like this from a reasonable player means you are behind but you still have enough outs against enough of his BB range to get to the river and I hate folding in Big Pots - particularly when I am the one who has pummped them up.

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
As played with the MP2 already calling a bet on the turn then there is only 1 reason to raise the turn - for value.

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But hero is raising for value here. In my experience, the donk bet most often signifies a decent, but not killer, hand and villian doesn't want to see the turn checked through. It's not until he's 3-bet that hero realizes he was raising for anti-value.

[ QUOTE ]
Basically your line is on the basis that he won't 3 bet the turn with worse than top two pair.

A donk 3 bet like this from a reasonable player means you are behind but you still have enough outs against enough of his BB range to get to the river and I hate folding in Big Pots - particularly when I am the one who has pummped them up.

[/ QUOTE ]
See my analysis above. If you assume that villian has 25 possible 2 pairs (not just top pair) and 10 possible sets, then hero doesn't have the outs to call.

As a note, if you add strangely played over-pairs into the equation, not much changes since they actually offer less outs than 2-pair hands.

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

I think failing to raise pre-flop would be a pretty big error. MP open-limpers usually have crap. Raising provides likely value, initiative, and maybe force some blinds out and allow you to play a hand that is better short-handed in a short-handed pot.

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

I think this hand is well-played. It sucks when we get three-bet, but that doesn't mean it wasn't correct to raise.

The presence of a third player in the pot is a good reason to believe that the EP dude isn't just messing around.

Re: 2/4 - Turn raise a donk bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop: jko (haha, pun) is not strong enough to be raising here.

[/ QUOTE ]


yes it is