89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

I had T1900 left, blinds 100/200. The table is really tight/passive. I've limped 2-3 times at this table, and wasn't raised. Now, there were two limpers, UTG+1 and MP1, and I was on the BTN with 89s. I'm really short, but I thought 1/10th of my stack is worth seeing if I flop a FD so I can gamble it up at that point. First, is this limp okay?

Second, the SB completed and BB checked. The flop came K x x with 2 clubs. It was checked to me on the BTN, I push 1900/1000. This also, I felt was correct. I felt I have FE, plus, I don't mind gamblng, obviously, at this point.

Thoughts?

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

What were UTG and MP's stack sizes?

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

I don't know, but no one's going to answer this thread, anyway. I've never posted here before.

I don't want to push 89s b/c I'm definitely getting called. But since at this table I can see a cheap flop, I may be able to get my money in really good. I like the play compared to either folding or pushing.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

I wouldn't fold here preflop. I know you are limping a big part of your stack, but you have a hand that plays well with position. I would say preflop pushing > limping > folding.

I gather you were suited in clubs. Then it seems correct to push on the flop when it is passed to you on the button.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

You're getting called if 1. one of the blinds has a big hand or 2. if one of the EP guys are trapping. At this stage in the tournament it's not entirely likely that someone is trapping, but I don't know for sure. Stack sizes are sort of important, I think, to know for sure, though.

I think there are merits to your play though, as it still leaves you w/ 1700 and that's certainly something to work with. I'd rather gamble I guess and hope that my cards are live EDIT: which is fairly important this early in the tournament.

jrbick

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

However, pushing here is certainly going to be called in at least 1 place, possibly more (this table loves calling). The reason it's taught not to limp when you're so short is b/c you're just going to be pushed out a large %, anyway, and then you bled away money. But at this table, there was a very high % chance that I can limp and see the flop, which makes it the best choice IMO. Do you think that's possible?

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, pushing here is certainly going to be called in at least 1 place, possibly more (this table loves calling). The reason it's taught not to limp when you're so short is b/c you're just going to be pushed out a large %, anyway, and then you bled away money. But at this table, there was a very high % chance that I can limp and see the flop, which makes it the best choice IMO. Do you think that's possible?

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What's the buyin? Is this live or online?

With a table of calling stations who will limp/call a preflop push, I like the limp better than folding or pushing preflop.

As I said, I like the flop push of a flush draw when passed to you in position.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

Yeah, I already said that it's (assuming that "it's" refers to it being a a good play) possible in my OP. I'm not a tournament expert either so take my advice fwiw. To me it's a matter of preference... I'd rather gamble in that spot than wait to pick up a hand before the blinds again.

jrbick

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, pushing here is certainly going to be called in at least 1 place, possibly more (this table loves calling). The reason it's taught not to limp when you're so short is b/c you're just going to be pushed out a large %, anyway, and then you bled away money. But at this table, there was a very high % chance that I can limp and see the flop, which makes it the best choice IMO. Do you think that's possible?

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What's the buyin? Is this live or online?

With a table of calling stations who will limp/call a preflop push, I like the limp better than folding or pushing preflop.

As I said, I like the flop push of a flush draw when passed to you in position.

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It's the party million going on right now, $215 BI, and I really don't think I have FE at all if I push PF.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

At this point you have'nt got enougth chips to call. When you bet you need to move-in and apply maximum pressure to the pot. If it is a tight passive a big grandstand move with 89 will work but it is preflop that you have the maximum fold equity the blinds must have a hand to call and the limpers have shown no strength. Whereas making the move on the flop gives 4 players the opportunity to catch enough of a hand to call.

regards

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

First, sure I have enough chips to just call. I'm going to push in the next 3 hands with either 1900 or 1700---not a big difference.

Second, I don't have FE at this table; I said that already (my flop AI was called by a limped TT in MP).

Third, if I'm going to push, I'm not pushing with 89s when I'm at best a 2:1 dog. I'll wait for Kx or Ax to push.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

Most of the time, that's a really bad limp. You have virtually no implied.

If you think you have a reasonable shot at making a play at it, maybe. But that's pretty rare with that kind of stack...

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

[ QUOTE ]
First, sure I have enough chips to just call. I'm going to push in the next 3 hands with either 1900 or 1700---not a big difference.

Second, I don't have FE at this table; I said that already (my flop AI was called by a limped TT in MP).

Third, if I'm going to push, I'm not pushing with 89s when I'm at best a 2:1 dog. I'll wait for Kx or Ax to push.

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I wouldn't push preflop if you don't think you have FE. 89s is probably as good to push with as Ax or Kx if x isn't high. 89s is even versus an underpair and 3-2 versus 2 offsuit over cards.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

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89s is probably as good to push with as Ax or Kx if x isn't high.

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This is a really good point.

jrbick

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

I don't doubt that that might be true, but I wouldn't push any of those hands in this spot at this table. I believe I'd have better equity if I did not push here, but waited for one of the next few hands, than to push 89s against 2 limpers and active blinds.

So to me, the choice was between folding and calling. Normally if I'm not going to push here, I'm just going to fold. But because the table was so passive, there was a great chance I would be able to see the flop. Given that I'll flop a FD+, 2p+ about 1/5 times, I DO have good implied odds, especially at this table where I might triple up if I push a hand like a pair and a draw.

I think it's funny that more than one person has said I don't have implied odds. I'm risking 200 to double up or triple up if I flop well, and other good things might happen such as it gets checked to me and I take it down, or I check through and get a free card or two. To fold 89s on the BTN when it's likely to be 4-5 handed would be a mistake IMO.

As the flop came, when I pushed, I put in about 39.6% of the money and I had 36.5% equity against the TT that took up most of his time and eventually called. If he would fold just 4% of the time, my play was +EV. As it turns out, it was basically break even EV to double up.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't doubt that that might be true, but I wouldn't push any of those hands in this spot at this table. I believe I'd have better equity if I did not push here, but waited for one of the next few hands, than to push 89s against 2 limpers and active blinds.

So to me, the choice was between folding and calling. Normally if I'm not going to push here, I'm just going to fold. But because the table was so passive, there was a great chance I would be able to see the flop. Given that I'll flop a FD+, 2p+ about 1/5 times, I DO have good implied odds, especially at this table where I might triple up if I push a hand like a pair and a draw.

I think it's funny that more than one person has said I don't have implied odds. I'm risking 200 to double up or triple up if I flop well, and other good things might happen such as it gets checked to me and I take it down, or I check through and get a free card or two. To fold 89s on the BTN when it's likely to be 4-5 handed would be a mistake IMO.

As the flop came, when I pushed, I put in about 39.6% of the money and I had 36.5% equity against the TT that took up most of his time and eventually called. If he would fold just 4% of the time, my play was +EV. As it turns out, it was basically break even EV to double up.

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You are putting in 1700 of 4400, so you are putting in 38.6% not 39.6%.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

M,

Nothing wrong with limp/folding limp/pushing if you want to hope for a better spot before the blinds come. I just prefer a gamble in your spot. TT will obv still call but seriously, I don't care that he had TT there. He could also have 55, 66, 77, ATs, AJs (possibly). He could have 44 - and possibly fold as well. This kind of prediction is hard to formulate w/o stack sizes though.

jrbick

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

wow.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

OP,

Your limp isn't bad just because you're short. It's bad because 98s doesn't win on the flop, it wins on the river, and you won't hit enough flops hard enough to continue or push anyone off a best hand on a flop that does hit you. The times you hit a draw just means you get to put more chips in as a 2:1 dog to anyone that decides to play with you, such as, on this flop, second pair.

That said, your limp is bad but not horrific under the circumstances - okay, you're giving up 100 of those 200 chips, fine. You then 'hit' a flop (note how this plays into what I just said), it's checked to you, and you shove for 2x pot. Congrats, you've successfully telegraphed "I have anything except a king" to everyone at the table and quite properly get called by tens. Would you ever push KJo there? No, you'd make a 600ish bet and then shove the turn, just like you should have done with this draw (or checked behind to save some chips - you are so short that you could've gotten the rest in on a river that hit, anyway.) I would say your flop play is much worse than your PF play.

Not knowing what to do on this flop is another reason not to call PF, BTW.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

Great post, very clear and concise.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

Most of what you said is very, very wrong. 89s wins on the flop, as in, is the best on the flop, a fair amount. Pair + FD or SD, FD + SD, overcards + gut + FD, 2p+, even TP against these guys. Also, my shove has FE (only needs under 5% given the scenario), TT almost folded. Not only that, but I could have checked through and saw a free turn if I so chose (if I didn't feel I had FE)--if I told you I could limp 89s for one BB, have the flop checked to me and see a free turn to see if I hit my flush, that would sound pretty tempting. Also, I would certainly shove KJ there.

And I knew what to do on the flop. Shove.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most of what you said is very, very wrong. 89s wins on the flop, as in, is the best on the flop, a fair amount. Pair + FD or SD, FD + SD, overcards + gut + FD, 2p+, even TP against these guys. Also, my shove has FE (only needs under 5% given the scenario), TT almost folded. Not only that, but I could have checked through and saw a free turn if I so chose (if I didn't feel I had FE)--if I told you I could limp 89s for one BB, have the flop checked to me and see a free turn to see if I hit my flush, that would sound pretty tempting. Also, I would certainly shove KJ there.

And I knew what to do on the flop. Shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL OPPOSITE DAY

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

all right, *now* it's time to give up

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

Sorry guys, I'm having a big family problem right at this moment, and I also don't play tournaments. I'm sorry if I'm being thick skinned or not getting the reasoning. I'll read over this stuff later, but right now I'm not understanding why it was bad. Sorry about being argumentative.

m

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry guys, I'm having a big family problem right at this moment, and I also don't play tournaments. I'm sorry if I'm being thick skinned or not getting the reasoning. I'll read over this stuff later, but right now I'm not understanding why it was bad. Sorry about being argumentative.

m

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Good luck with the family problems.

I'd limp too. Catch a flop and push/call. You are short stacked and need to gamble at some point. This is one of those gambling opportunities.

Pushing all in is another gamble. And not one that I would do. It's too likely that SOMEONE will call you. And you have a Zero showdown hand.

On the flop, you have two choices: Check for the free card, or push all in. Personally I'd push. Flush draw 36% + 14% FE = coin flip. About as good as it gets at this point in the tourney.

You played it fine.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

The preflop push is not a bad play. Obviously, you don't want to be called by TT, but you don't mind an underpair or overards. Atleast, you should get HU with pot odds. If you get multiple callers, your suited connector may be ahead of pot odds, and someone may protect you buy betting the flop.

In most live tournaments, I would automatically push this, as you generally have good folding equity. Similarly online late in the tournament, on the bubble, or in fairly high buyin freezeouts.

Re: 89s Tourney Hand--please advise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had T1900 left, blinds 100/200. The table is really tight/passive. I've limped 2-3 times at this table, and wasn't raised. Now, there were two limpers, UTG+1 and MP1, and I was on the BTN with 89s. I'm really short, but I thought 1/10th of my stack is worth seeing if I flop a FD so I can gamble it up at that point. First, is this limp okay?

Second, the SB completed and BB checked. The flop came K x x with 2 clubs. It was checked to me on the BTN, I push 1900/1000. This also, I felt was correct. I felt I have FE, plus, I don't mind gamblng, obviously, at this point.

Thoughts?

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89 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

Anyway, I often can't resist limping here, but I think it's naughty.

I think pushing is fine too. It's a big pot and 89s is a good hand to see five cards with. I'm also assuming bigger pairs have raised. And there is the squeeze effect on one of the limpers.

Come the flop, if I feel I have to make a stab at this pot, it's a push if I have the suit but I guess you don't because that's obvious, or, if I really want to try and take it down with no outs five way (which seems misguided), then it would be a post-oak bluff followed by a push on a non-club turn, depending on who's calling, what their stack is and what odds I'm laying.

Let's face it though. This is hand demonstrates why limping is so naughty.