Two Plus Two Newer Archives - NL200 -- Two QQ hands

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NL200 -- Two QQ hands

Hand 1: SB was a pretty big LAG and we had played a fair few pots together. BB was a nit.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Hero ($150.75)
SB ($567.85)
BB ($47.85)
UTG ($213.05)
MP ($178)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $8, MP calls $8, Hero raises to $40, SB raises to $72, BB calls $45.85 (All-In), UTG folds, MP folds, Hero calls $32.

Flop: ($207.85) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
SB bets $80, Hero calls $78.75 (All-In).

Turn: ($366.60) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($366.60) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $366.60

Hand 2: This guy had been totally unremarkable so far. Something like 25/8, just fairly normal.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($230.55)
UTG ($363.70)
Hero ($217.05)
CO ($100)
Button ($197.80)
SB ($380)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, Hero raises to $10, CO (poster) calls $8, 1 fold, SB raises to $38, 1 fold, Hero calls $28, CO folds.

Flop: ($88) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $42, Hero calls $42.

Turn: ($172) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $58, Hero calls $58.

River: ($288) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $224, Hero calls $79.05 (All-In).

Final Pot: $591.05

Thoughts on both?

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

Hand 1 why not just push preflop? You're basically pot comitted, especially against a "big lag"

Hand 2 I really dont like. I think there may be a fold here, possibly on the flop? Maybe that is too weak-tight. Possibly a call and push a non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] turn? I think I fold the flop after the PF action though. Calling flop and turn with the stack sizes is bad because you're pot comitted on any non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] river

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

Hand 1:Given that the SB is a huge LAG, and that your raise looks very much like it could be a squeeze play (I'm giving the SB credit for knowing you are capable of such a move, let me know if you disagree), I would probably play it the same way you did. You're getting great odds on the PF call and the flop call, and still have a chance of recouping money in the side pot should the nitty BB have AA or KK.

Hand 2: His hand seems to me like a high diamond that is trying to give himself good odds to draw via these small blocking bets. That river card is really ugly, but once again you're getting better than 4:1, so I think I would call and cross my fingers that it's Ad Qx or Td Tx rather than AK, KK or AA with a diamond.

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

Bump, one time for the day crowd.

Imsa, I didn't push PF on the first one because I didn't want to give him the opportunity to lay down a small pair that he'd be OOP with and likely push the flop.

Well yeah, I thought the flop might be a fold after the PF action... but I was trying to treat it as a way behind/slightly ahead situation and call down, hoping upon hope I might get a free showdown on the river. And then once I get to the river I've got so much in the pot I can't really fold. I'm thinking fold the flop.

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

Big lags don't fold pf once they have invested half their stacks. Just push pf if you think you are ahead of his range.

Hand 2 I think is a rly easy flop fold if this guy hasn't gotten out of line yet. Once you call the flop you kinda have to call those turn/river bets.

Paul

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

Hand 1 I just push pre-flop. If LAG SB can lay down a pocket pair in a huge pot for a bet that just doubles his raise pre-flop, he has an even easier time laying it down on the flop when the pair misses its set. Frankly, I don't think most LAGs lay it down often in either situation, but I get the money in when I'm a big favourite and when he can convince himself that his 33 is a coinflip.

Hand 2, I find a fold on the flop against this "unremarkable" opponent. We may be ahead, but not often and not by much, and calling down is going to get very expensive.

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

Hand 1: I would have pushed all-in pre-flop although it doesn't make much difference if you're not folding the flop anyway.

Since SB is LAG, if he has AA or KK so be it, I'm not going to beat myself up about it.

Hand 2: I think I would push on the flop. So hard to get away from QQ here.

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

QQ is very difficult hand for me too to play in situations like these (so this is not advice, more like asking advice for myself too)

On first hand I'd probably push as there's tons of money in the pot, your stack is short and I'd hate to fold if A/K flops after putting half of my stack in.

Second hand I might even fold pf if he hasn't been reraising much.

What's the 3-bet range for a typical 25/8 player OOP? If it's QQ+,AK then you're in bad shape.

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

[ QUOTE ]
What's the 3-bet range for a typical 25/8 player OOP? If it's QQ+,AK then you're in bad shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even broadening the range of pairs, Hero doesn't fare much better. Hero's crushed by AA and KK (even more so if Villain has a diamond), by JJ and 99, and is only a slight favourite against TdTx and AdKx or AxKd or even AxQd.

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

Okay I'm confused here, in hand 2 if we are just going to call pre-flop, what flop are we hoping to see (other than the obvious Q on the flop) where we will call bets? Are we hoping to get checked to and then make a bet? I kind of see where Pete is coming from here. If Villain's range is AA, KK, QQ and AK then should we fold preflop? That seems awfully tight, but why call if we will fold to a flop bet?

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's the 3-bet range for a typical 25/8 player OOP? If it's QQ+,AK then you're in bad shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even broadening the range of pairs, Hero doesn't fare much better. Hero's crushed by AA and KK (even more so if Villain has a diamond), by JJ and 99, and is only a slight favourite against TdTx and AdKx or AxKd or even AxQd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aah okay, so the answer to my question is a flop without an A or K, not monotone, and preferably not 9,T,J either. So all low cards preferably?

e.g. if flop is T 5 2 rainbow, we just call down?

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

the thing about hand 2 is i was getting like 2:1 pf because of the COs call... meh, i dunno. to be honest i just didn't even consider folding QQ preflop in a 6max game to a 3bet. i obviously wasn't going to 4bet, but I have to believe that his range consists of more than AA-QQ, AK here.

i wonder if its worth mentioning that i play something like 30/22 in these games, although i'm not sure exactly what my stats were at that particular table. does that effect the decision in either direction? I hate it when people forget to include stuff in their OP, but here I am =/

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

[ QUOTE ]
Okay I'm confused here, in hand 2 if we are just going to call pre-flop, what flop are we hoping to see (other than the obvious Q on the flop) where we will call bets? Are we hoping to get checked to and then make a bet? I kind of see where Pete is coming from here. If Villain's range is AA, KK, QQ and AK then should we fold preflop? That seems awfully tight, but why call if we will fold to a flop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we know enough about Villain to put him on that small a range. I'm calling this pre-flop because when I'm behind, I expect to score a big pot with a set, and when I'm ahead, my position will give me a significant advantage. In this case, I think we are ahead pre-flop a lot of the time.

However, the advantage granted by position is in the information it gives us. Here, Villain bets out on a semi-coordinated monotone flop. I now know that I either was not ahead pre-flop, and so am not ahead now, I was ahead pre-flop but I am now crushed, or I was ahead pre-flop and am ahead now, but my edge is quite small (at most roughly 57/40).

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

mojo -- you speaka da truth. i'm sold on the flop fold now.

Re: NL200 -- Two QQ hands

Hand 1 is fine Hand 2 is not so great. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

With the Qd I don't go much further even if we're getting a sick price.