Easy preflop question
 

Given no specific reads. Raise or call? PS, someone posted OOP, hence the bigger PF raise.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $202.55
UTG+1: $112.25
CO: $40
Button: $64.80
Hero: $100
BB: $63.45

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $5</font>, CO folds, Button calls, Hero ?

Re: Easy preflop question
 

you guys are complete nits, jesus. are you only raising JJ-AA or something?

Re: Easy preflop question
 

Just call and play poker.
If the flop is low you can take a stab at it.
If you make a set and either villain has a big pair you get their stack.
If you raise you might get reraised.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
you guys are complete nits, jesus. are you only raising JJ-AA or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.
HU I raise it.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
you guys are complete nits, jesus. are you only raising JJ-AA or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Playing OOP 3 handed with TT sucks though.

Holla

Re: Easy preflop question
 

77 or 88 I might consider calling, but im not turning TT into 22 here. I would pot that baby.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you guys are complete nits, jesus. are you only raising JJ-AA or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Playing OOP 3 handed with TT sucks though.

Holla

[/ QUOTE ]

thats why we raise

Re: Easy preflop question
 

He made a 4bb+1 raise from UTG, I'm going to give him credit for a decent hand if I have no reads, and see what flops.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
He made a 4bb+1 raise from UTG, I'm going to give him credit for a decent hand if I have no reads, and see what flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

He made a standard PSR because of the OOP post. FTP has a bet pot button and he just mashed that. I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the strength of his hand from the $5 bet.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
you guys are complete nits, jesus. are you only raising JJ-AA or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

No biatch

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $1980
UTG+1: $1880
CO: $1994
Button: $3796
Hero: $1980
BB: $869

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $70</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $370</font>, BB folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises all-in $1880</font>, 2 folds, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $1510 returned to UTG+1.

Results:
Final pot: $900

But I don't see a reason to turn TT into J4o by playing a huge pot OOP against an UTG raiser.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

I've said it before...I don't like reraising these sort of hands. They have huge showdown value and obv great set value, and we just take sooo much of that away by reraising.

I'd much rather reraise 67s or a suited ace than TT/99

Re: Easy preflop question
 

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[ QUOTE ]
He made a 4bb+1 raise from UTG, I'm going to give him credit for a decent hand if I have no reads, and see what flops.

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He made a standard PSR because of the OOP post. FTP has a bet pot button and he just mashed that. I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the strength of his hand from the $5 bet.

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My point about it being 4BB+1 was that it was a standard raise, not a [censored] minraise or whatever. I thought this made it more likely that he's a reasonable player. Didn't know about the bet pot button - obviously this changes things. Still think a call is prob best though.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've said it before...I don't like reraising these sort of hands. They have huge showdown value and obv great set value, and we just take sooo much of that away by reraising.

I'd much rather reraise 67s or a complete junk than TT/99

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Easy preflop question
 

I like a re-raise. UTG's gonna need a great hand to continue with the guy in the middle. I don't mind taking this pot down now, and I also don't mind callers (although any c-bet would need great flop texture), finally a re-raise from UTG lets me get away from this cheaply if the flop was all unders.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've said it before...I don't like reraising these sort of hands. They have huge showdown value and obv great set value, and we just take sooo much of that away by reraising.

I'd much rather reraise 67s or a suited ace than TT/99

[/ QUOTE ]I like this. This has always been my intuition but I never really put it into words before.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've said it before...I don't like reraising these sort of hands. They have huge showdown value and obv great set value, and we just take sooo much of that away by reraising.

I'd much rather reraise 67s or a suited ace than TT/99

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious dbitel, but would you mind explaining what you mean by "they have huge showdown value", or even just expand on everything you said above?

I understand the huge set value of hands like this is a multiway pot, but how does TT have huge showdown value? It seems like in a raised pot it'd only have medium showdown value at best unless you hit your set, since any A-J could have you beat.

Seems like everyone agrees with you, so I'm just trying to understand what I'm missing here.

Thanks.

Results
 

When I saw that I had TT I just instapotted it and took it down, but seconds later realised that calling &gt; raising.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've said it before...I don't like reraising these sort of hands. They have huge showdown value and obv great set value, and we just take sooo much of that away by reraising.

I'd much rather reraise 67s or a suited ace than TT/99

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious dbitel, but would you mind explaining what you mean by "they have huge showdown value", or even just expand on everything you said above?

I understand the huge set value of hands like this is a multiway pot, but how does TT have huge showdown value? It seems like in a raised pot it'd only have medium showdown value at best unless you hit your set, since any A-J could have you beat.

Seems like everyone agrees with you, so I'm just trying to understand what I'm missing here.

Thanks.

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It kind of all depends how confortable you are with playing a marginal hand OOP and getting reads on your opponent. But if your opponent has 2 overs, he's going to only hit the flop 1 in 3 times and cbet most the time too. Now I'm confortable enough in my ability that I can take this TT to showdown when he's missed.

A normal line is to c/c flop and check turn, or something like that. Its actually not too hard to get to showdown really, and you'll obviously be ahead more often than not. Yeha, sometimes you let QJ or whatever outdraw you, but I think thats more than made up for by the value you get when they miss/the time you flop a set and the times you would've got yourself in a big mess vs JJ+ when you reraised preflop

Re: Easy preflop question
 

In general, I just call here.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

I rr or call dependant on the guys opening standards and how he plays postflop.

I guess default v an unknown would be a call though so I voted that.

Paul

Re: Easy preflop question
 

I like a call and play some poker but I like a raise too. Both are good. I usually only call this.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

No way I reraise without a read.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

I voted raise initially, but then realized that the button coldcalled the raise, which I didn't see before. I agree w/ Ticks that HU you raise this OOP, but 3-handed I think you call to avoid re-opening the betting and to keep the pot size manageable. This way we can jam the pot if the flop is low or we hit a set, and if the flop is AK7 we can easily get off our hand.

Of course, a read that UTG and/or button are weak and/or will fold to a PF RR could change my answer, but I think the above is my default.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

Fwiw I just call even without button in.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

I don't get this - why do we want to see a flop when any overcards and subsequent action suck for this hand? Also, when we get a flop of all unders we have no idea where we are against an aggressive villian - do you fold to the cbet, the turn bet or are we just calling down and waiting to get shown some jacks.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

I'd call here, maybe sometimes raise IN POSITION. But you're just getting yourself into silly trouble by reraising. And as said, you have relative position in the hand postflop with a hand that can make sets or whatever...

Re: Easy preflop question
 

I would call here unless I had at least 160 in my stack, in which case I'd make it 20. I don't want to ruin my implied set odds preflop. (8*20=160)

Now it is true that if both players called the 20 dollar reraise I could make 160 (my stack of 100 + Button's 60) but that is a little thin. It does have some real showdown value too, so I guess that could make up the difference.

Maybe a little raise to 15 that both players might be more likely to call? I'd only need 120 then. Seems yucky.

No, I'm calling here with this 100BB stack and no reads.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

I'm squeezing with much worse here.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

FYP

[ QUOTE ]
you guys are complete nits, jesus. are you only re-raising JJ-AA or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes and maybe AK just to be frisky...

Re: Easy preflop question
 

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I'm squeezing with much worse here.

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Oh, sure, but that's read dependant. In reality, I'm almost never without reads, and the reads are usually along the lines of 'Opens UTG with hands as bad as A3o.' and 'any 2 calls on the button, folds to reraise' So I'd raise there. But readless, I'm going to be a bit conservative. I have to know at a minimum whether opponents can fold.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

If you do raise ( i voted call),
What do you do if the flop come A, J, 5 in first position vs 2 villians.

You come out firing and they may fold, or u get called and are in big trouble.

With this hand i call because i want to win somebodies whole stack by catching a T on the flop. If a ten hits it makes for a nice slow play. Hopefully UTG bets, button folds, hero raises.

I think the real value of this hand is a set on the flop.
Re-raise and get re-raised and you don't even get to see the floop.

Get cold called by one or 2 players with your re-raise, and you our almost obligated to bet on the flop nomatter what hits.

Looks like trouble to me.
[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Easy preflop question
 

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I'm squeezing with much worse here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think squeezing an unknown UTG raiser is a great move here. If he had opened from the CO, maybe, but I'd still rather have a read...

Edit: and IMO a squeeze should be done with a mediocre/speculative hand, not a good one. Or is this what you meant?

Re: Easy preflop question
 

If you call it's a tough hand to play OOP against a big raise UTG.

There is already a ton of dead money in the pot that I want.

We have a very good hand.

For these reasons and more, I repop it near the size of the pot.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've said it before...I don't like reraising these sort of hands. They have huge showdown value and obv great set value, and we just take sooo much of that away by reraising.


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How you going to get to showdown cheap OOP? It's also hard to build a pot OOP when you flop a set. I'm not saying you should always raise in this spot, but I prefer raising and winning the pot if our fold equity is high.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've said it before...I don't like reraising these sort of hands. They have huge showdown value and obv great set value, and we just take sooo much of that away by reraising.


[/ QUOTE ]

How you going to get to showdown cheap OOP? It's also hard to build a pot OOP when you flop a set. I'm not saying you should always raise in this spot, but I prefer raising and winning the pot if our fold equity is high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting to showdown cheap shouldn't be very hard. Given a good flop like Q72r check/call, check turn and evaluate is a valid line to use. Also there's like 17 BB in the pot already, building a big pot if we flop a set isn't going to be hard at all.

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've said it before...I don't like reraising these sort of hands. They have huge showdown value and obv great set value, and we just take sooo much of that away by reraising.


[/ QUOTE ]

How you going to get to showdown cheap OOP? It's also hard to build a pot OOP when you flop a set. I'm not saying you should always raise in this spot, but I prefer raising and winning the pot if our fold equity is high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting to showdown cheap shouldn't be very hard. Given a good flop like Q72r check/call, check turn and evaluate is a valid line to use. Also there's like 17 BB in the pot already, building a big pot if we flop a set isn't going to be hard at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I believe this but I've got a lot to learn on hands like this one.

Your call makes it $15 in the pot on the flop. Villain can easily make average size bets and get you all-in by the river. With what boards/villain types are you getting away if he takes the bet/bet/bet line? Or do you just think such a line unlikely given villain's range and your calls?

Re: Easy preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've said it before...I don't like reraising these sort of hands. They have huge showdown value and obv great set value, and we just take sooo much of that away by reraising.

I'd much rather reraise 67s or a suited ace than TT/99

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious dbitel, but would you mind explaining what you mean by "they have huge showdown value", or even just expand on everything you said above?

I understand the huge set value of hands like this is a multiway pot, but how does TT have huge showdown value? It seems like in a raised pot it'd only have medium showdown value at best unless you hit your set, since any A-J could have you beat.

Seems like everyone agrees with you, so I'm just trying to understand what I'm missing here.

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

It kind of all depends how confortable you are with playing a marginal hand OOP and getting reads on your opponent. But if your opponent has 2 overs, he's going to only hit the flop 1 in 3 times and cbet most the time too. Now I'm confortable enough in my ability that I can take this TT to showdown when he's missed.

A normal line is to c/c flop and check turn, or something like that. Its actually not too hard to get to showdown really, and you'll obviously be ahead more often than not. Yeha, sometimes you let QJ or whatever outdraw you, but I think thats more than made up for by the value you get when they miss/the time you flop a set and the times you would've got yourself in a big mess vs JJ+ when you reraised preflop

[/ QUOTE ]


Makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation.

Obv. it's read-dependent, but in the above scenario, say then turn goes check/check and an overcard comes on the river. If you check and they bet, what's your typical thought process then? Call if the bet's below a certain range, etc?