KQ off
 

Party .50/1.00 FR. Villian unknown.

Pre flop: One early limper, i raise KQ off from a middle position, villian 3-bets from a late position, everyone including the early limper folds and i call.

Flop(2 players 8.5sb): AQx rainbow.

Whats the plan post flop?

Re: KQ off
 

I would C/R the flop. And take it from there. If he 3 bets me, and nothing comes on the turn to help me then i'm letting it go

Re: KQ off
 

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I would C/R the flop. And take it from there. If he 3 bets me, and nothing comes on the turn to help me then i'm letting it go

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What are you trying to accomplish with a flop check/raise?

Re: KQ off
 

Check-call, reevaluate on turn.

Re: KQ off
 

I check call all the way down against a unknown.

Re: KQ off
 

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Check-call, reevaluate on turn.

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If the turn is a brick?

Re: KQ off
 

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I would C/R the flop. And take it from there. If he 3 bets me, and nothing comes on the turn to help me then i'm letting it go

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What are you trying to accomplish with a flop check/raise?

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Hang me out to dry with this one , but I ain't donk betting the flop. I really don't want to call down. So its either a rasie or folding. And I think folding is pretty weak, on the basis that your giving him credit for the A or pocket K/Q's.

Thats my explantion now tell me why i'm wrong [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] (which i'm sure you will)

Re: KQ off
 

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Check-call, reevaluate on turn.

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If the turn is a brick?

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Tough one. It sort of depends on what kind of brick it is (e.g. if it opens or closes any draws). I think it's pretty marginal between check-call (with value for the read) and check-fold.

Re: KQ off
 

I could see a c/c flop, c/f turn line, but you guys who're regularly playing in this game could perhaps better tell me how often villains will bet twice with JJ here.

Re: KQ off
 

I think my plan is to call down to aggression. C/r the flop is worthless for info on an unknown. I think because we got a piece of it, we have equity to call down. There's no real equity to raise it at any point.

Re: KQ off
 

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I would C/R the flop. And take it from there. If he 3 bets me, and nothing comes on the turn to help me then i'm letting it go

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What are you trying to accomplish with a flop check/raise?

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Hang me out to dry with this one , but I ain't donk betting the flop. I really don't want to call down. So its either a rasie or folding. And I think folding is pretty weak, on the basis that your giving him credit for the A or pocket K/Q's.

Thats my explantion now tell me why i'm wrong [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] (which i'm sure you will)

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I think the main thing if ahead here we really don't want our villian to fold. Also depending on what range you put an unknown on here we are probably in pretty bad shape.

Edit to add i would not donk this flop.

Re: KQ off
 

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C/r the flop is worthless for info on an unknown.

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raising for info is nearly always 99% wrong IMO.

Re: KQ off
 

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I would C/R the flop. And take it from there. If he 3 bets me, and nothing comes on the turn to help me then i'm letting it go

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The bad thing about this line is your probably just getting called down by KK.

Re: KQ off
 

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I would C/R the flop. And take it from there. If he 3 bets me, and nothing comes on the turn to help me then i'm letting it go

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What are you trying to accomplish with a flop check/raise?

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Hang me out to dry with this one , but I ain't donk betting the flop. I really don't want to call down. So its either a rasie or folding. And I think folding is pretty weak, on the basis that your giving him credit for the A or pocket K/Q's.

Thats my explantion now tell me why i'm wrong [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] (which i'm sure you will)

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I think the main thing if ahead here we really don't want our villian to fold. Also depending on what range you put an unknown on here we are probably in pretty bad shape.

Edit to add i would not donk this flop.

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Can understand where you are coming from now. I'll keep and eye on this thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: KQ off
 

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I think my plan is to call down to aggression. C/r the flop is worthless for info on an unknown. I think because we got a piece of it, we have equity to call down. There's no real equity to raise it at any point.

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OK, so on the flop, you put him on a range of hands, and there are a good number we beat of them, making folding bad. However, of that set, how many bet the turn? How many continue to bet the river?

Re: KQ off
 

DrModern, MrWookie the turn was a complete low brick. I checked he bet and this was where i was lost. If i call i assume the river is a standard bet/fold UI?

Re: KQ off
 

I'm probably more likely to go c/c, c/f UI, even though I don't like it. Without a read though, I'll take the safe route until I get one.

I've seen myself call too many bets w/ a 2nd best in the past. I don't think it's turned me weak, but I think we're behind more hands the average player will 3 bet: AQ, AK, AQs, AKs, KQs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT.

There's not much profit there in calling down. I probably have too narrow a range for villain's three bet. I certainly 3-bet more stuff.

Re: KQ off
 

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I think my plan is to call down to aggression. C/r the flop is worthless for info on an unknown. I think because we got a piece of it, we have equity to call down. There's no real equity to raise it at any point.

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OK, so on the flop, you put him on a range of hands, and there are a good number we beat of them, making folding bad. However, of that set, how many bet the turn? How many continue to bet the river?

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Don't u think all hands in his flop range bet the turn to be able to show down on the river? We can have KJ or something for all he knows. But I don't think a hand worse than top pair will bet this river. So maybe c/c flop and turn and fold river UI?

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Check-call, reevaluate on turn.

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If the turn is a brick?

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c/f

oop suxor

Re: KQ off
 

How about a radically crazy line...bet/call flop, bet/fold turn.

-Jaran

Re: KQ off
 

Can you please give the correct answer soon [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]?

Re: KQ off
 

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How about a radically crazy line...bet/call flop, bet/fold turn.

-Jaran

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yah, but I haven't had success with that lately.

Buzz

Re: KQ off
 

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How about a radically crazy line...bet/call flop, bet/fold turn.

-Jaran

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You donk the turn UI when he raises you on the flop? at .5/1?

What do you do on the river when he calls your turn bet?

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*grunch*

Plan is to call down UI. There aren't many hands that the typical player 3-bets- JJ+, AK. You're behind most of these.

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Check/call. Check/fold if he bets again

Re: KQ off
 

You say he is unknown, so lets say that he is generally a TAG, a LP or a LAG.

A TAG's 3-betting range is AK, AQ (maybe), TT, JJ QQ, KK, and AA. The only hands you beat here are TT and JJ. SO he is ahead with a LOT more hands than he is behind.

A LP's 3-betting range is even more narrow so we are behind even more.

The only way you are likely to have the best hand here is if villain is a LAG, and even then it is shaky because he raises with a lot more aces.

Basically this means you are beind almost every hand vs almost every opponent except MAYBE a LAG. I think you have the odds to peel one on the flop, but even if you improve i wouldn't get too aggressive because the same hands that improve you improve his range. Definite fold on the turn UI.

3-beting ranges are pretty narrow, and if you are aginst a villain who 3-bets crap you will have a read within the first orbit so you will know next time.

C/R is ridiculous, and IMO calling down is a mistake too in this spot.

Re: KQ off
 

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How about a radically crazy line...bet/call flop, bet/fold turn.

-Jaran

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You donk the turn UI when he raises you on the flop? at .5/1?

What do you do on the river when he calls your turn bet?

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I most likely wouldn't use this line without an overaggro pf/flop read. But, just to get the thoughts flowing, how many times have we seen a hand on this board where someone raises JJ after a couple of limpers, gets bet into on an Ahigh or Khigh flop, and about half of the responses suggest a riase? (yeah, I know this is a different scenario) Personally, against an unknown, I think the best line is c/c, c/f. (Although this begs the question on the correct line on the river if villian cks behind on the turn).

As to your question on what to do on the river if villian just calls the turn donk (sng!!!), I would plan on a bet/fold again.

-Jaran

Re: KQ off
 

villan is 3 betting : TT JJ QQ KK AA AQ AQs AK AKs
QQ KK AA AQ AQs AK AKs continue to bet till river (KK will check behind on river)

leaving us ahead of 2 hands behind 7
c/c c/f

Re: KQ off
 

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villan is 3 betting : TT JJ QQ KK AA AQ AQs AK AKs
QQ KK AA AQ AQs AK AKs continue to bet till river (KK will check behind on river)

leaving us ahead of 2 hands behind 7
c/c c/f

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Way to put some evidence behind it.

Re: KQ off
 

well im saying as a standard majority of the time [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]a

Re: KQ off
 

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well im saying as a standard majority of the time [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]a

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I wasn't being sarcastic. Good job quanifying it.
[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: KQ off
 

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Check-call, reevaluate on turn.

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On what turn cards would you put more money in?

Re: KQ off
 

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villan is 3 betting : TT JJ QQ KK AA AQ AQs AK AKs
QQ KK AA AQ AQs AK AKs continue to bet till river (KK will check behind on river)

leaving us ahead of 2 hands behind 7
c/c c/f

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In order to really get this right, you need to tell us how many ways he can have each of those hands. For instance, there are a lot more JJ's than QQ's, so you can't count them each as just one "hand."

Re: KQ off
 

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villan is 3 betting : TT JJ QQ KK AA AQ AQs AK AKs
QQ KK AA AQ AQs AK AKs continue to bet till river (KK will check behind on river)

leaving us ahead of 2 hands behind 7
c/c c/f

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You should count the hands with their respective multiplicity.

Behind: AA (3), AKo+s (12), AQo+s (6), KK (6), QQ (1)
Ahead: TT (6), JJ (6).

So we're ahead against 12 hands and behind against 28. That's 7:3 as opposed to 7:2. (I hope I didn't mess things up)

Assuming villain bets every street if we check we get 13.5:5 (27:10) for a call down. That's not good enough, so c/c flop c/f turn sounds good.

Re: KQ off
 

if a K drops on the turn i still think we can only beat the same hands we could on the flop... but now they have a more outs to draw out on us....

If a Q drops on the turn the the hand is ours unless he has AA

Re: KQ off
 

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Check-call, reevaluate on turn.

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On what turn cards would you put more money in?

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Basically: A queen.

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villan is 3 betting : TT JJ QQ KK AA AQ AQs AK AKs
QQ KK AA AQ AQs AK AKs continue to bet till river (KK will check behind on river)

leaving us ahead of 2 hands behind 7
c/c c/f

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You should count the hands with their respective multiplicity.

Behind: AA (3), AKo+s (12), AQo+s (6), KK (6), QQ (1)
Ahead: TT (6), JJ (6).

So we're ahead against 12 hands and behind against 28. That's 7:3 as opposed to 7:2. (I hope I didn't mess things up)

Assuming villain bets every street if we check we get 13.5:5 (27:10) for a call down. That's not good enough, so c/c flop c/f turn sounds good.

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You don't win the prize, either. There are only 9 AK's and 3 KK's. You forgot that we held a K.

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If a Q drops on the turn the the hand is ours unless he has AA

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Or AQ

Re: KQ off
 

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If a Q drops on the turn the the hand is ours unless he has AA

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Or AQ

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yeah that too =P sorry i just woke up

Re: KQ off
 

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You don't win the prize, either. There are only 9 AK's and 3 KK's. You forgot that we held a K.

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Ouch. Go back to counting 101.

So we're behind only 22 combinations. Still, calling down seems wrong given the odds.