$109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

***** Hand History for Game 4948224453 *****
NL Texas Hold'em 109 Buy-in Trny:27371206 Level:2 Blinds(30/60) - Monday, August 14, 15:47:29 ET 2006
Table Speed (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 10: the_bobcat ( 2214 )
Seat 6: Dead_Money06 ( 1730 )
Seat 3: samandben ( 2300 )
Seat 2: donwaba ( 1773 )
Seat 4: alldaylong247 ( 2360 )
Seat 8: carlovesh ( 3885 )
Seat 1: global05 ( 1848 )
Seat 9: Pudge727 ( 2060 )
Seat 7: Alaskakid62 ( 1830 )
Trny:27371206 Level:2
Blinds(30/60)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Pudge727 [ As Ac ]
>You have options at Speed Table!.
the_bobcat calls [60].
global05 folds.
donwaba calls [60].
>You have options at Speed Table!.
samandben calls [60].
>You have options at Speed Table!.
>You have options at Speed Table!.
alldaylong247 calls [60].
Dead_Money06 folds.
Alaskakid62 folds.
>You have options at Speed Table!.
>You have options at Speed Table!.
>You have options at Speed Table!.
carlovesh will be using his time bank for this hand.
carlovesh calls [30].
>You have options at Speed Table!.
Pudge727 raises ?

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]

***** Hand History for Game 4948224453 *****
NL Texas Hold'em 109 Buy-in Trny:27371206 Level:2 Blinds(30/60) - Monday, August 14, 15:47:29 ET 2006
Table Speed (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 10: the_bobcat ( 2214 )
Seat 6: Dead_Money06 ( 1730 )
Seat 3: samandben ( 2300 )
Seat 2: donwaba ( 1773 )
Seat 4: alldaylong247 ( 2360 )
Seat 8: carlovesh ( 3885 )
Seat 1: global05 ( 1848 )
Seat 9: Pudge727 ( 2060 )
Seat 7: Alaskakid62 ( 1830 )
Trny:27371206 Level:2
Blinds(30/60)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Pudge727 [ As Ac ]
>You have options at Speed Table!.
the_bobcat calls [60].
global05 folds.
donwaba calls [60].
>You have options at Speed Table!.
samandben calls [60].
>You have options at Speed Table!.
>You have options at Speed Table!.
alldaylong247 calls [60].
Dead_Money06 folds.
Alaskakid62 folds.
>You have options at Speed Table!.
>You have options at Speed Table!.
>You have options at Speed Table!.
carlovesh will be using his time bank for this hand.
carlovesh calls [30].
>You have options at Speed Table!.
Pudge727 raises ?

[/ QUOTE ]

raise TO 250-325... that maybe a bit on the low side

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

YOU HAVE OPTIONS AT SPEED TABLE! TAKE THEM TAKE THEM TAKE THEM.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

yea i would bet here
I would bet the pot or 7-8XBB

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

Raise alot... youre out of position, so get as much in now as possible and try to isolate yourself against one opponent. Make it 500-600

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

575ish

make it big

domino effect is ugly here.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

T500ish sounds about right.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

400-550

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

People saying 500-600 why not just push?

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
YOU HAVE OPTIONS AT SPEED TABLE! TAKE THEM TAKE THEM TAKE THEM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which one though??? Holy crap, which oneeeeeeeeee!!!!!

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
T500ish sounds about right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree and that bet might just get a caller. Pushing is less likely to get one, a lot less likely.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

I think a raise to 330 is fine. I don't think you need to overdo it that much. It will certainly narrow the field while giving incorrect odds for pairs to bust you.

Ryan

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

My 1st instinct was 350-400

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
People saying 500-600 why not just push?

[/ QUOTE ]

People are so much more likely to reshove on you with like AQ then call it all off.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People saying 500-600 why not just push?

[/ QUOTE ]

People are so much more likely to reshove on you with like AQ then call it all off.

[/ QUOTE ]

How did you come to this conclusion?

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

I studied in an Asian dojo in the mountains.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

i make it 350

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I studied in an Asian dojo in the mountains.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

Agreed on making it big, like t500-550, also agreed on the non-shove as I still (amazingly) find people shoving middle pocket pairs or AK/AQ in this spot.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

400

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
i make it 350

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

I find it interesting that I'm getting fairly varied answers from respected posters, and with no real reasoning behind any of it. I'm aware reasoning here is kind of weird because it's such a simple hand and our opponents give us little information, but if people could elaborate and there thought process a little more here, that would be great.

The other alternative is wait for Curtains to post and follow him blindly.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
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Quote:
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People saying 500-600 why not just push?


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People are so much more likely to reshove on you with like AQ then call it all off.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How did you come to this conclusion?




[/ QUOTE ]

cause a raise like this from the button or the BB is often just a raise to pick up all the dead chips in the pot with a weaker than normal raising hand. since he is playing it exactly that way, it isn't rare for an early position player to push in over the top representing a limped pair of AA or KK.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that I'm getting fairly varied answers from respected posters, and with no real reasoning behind any of it. I'm aware reasoning here is kind of weird because it's such a simple hand and our opponents give us little information, but if people could elaborate and there thought process a little more here, that would be great.

The other alternative is wait for Curtains to post and follow him blindly.

[/ QUOTE ]


making it 350 is reraising to just over the pot size. this is optimal. you are forcing your opponents to make a mistake by calling such a big raise and this will likely thin the field to just 1 or 2 callers from my experience. raising to 500 bloats the pot and doesnt allow a whole lot of room to escape if something happens, i feel like its spewing just a bit. shoving i just dont think gets called enough to be profitable and i dont know if the pot is big enough to warrant just ending it now by shoving. finally, by making it 350 you do all of the above and make the pot big enough that you can get it AI and allow TP/other random draw or hand to pay you off on the flop where the pot IS big enough to warrant pushing, but not so big that you cant get away from a terrible flop or heavy action where its clear youre beat.


also, curtains told me to post this [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that I'm getting fairly varied answers from respected posters, and with no real reasoning behind any of it. I'm aware reasoning here is kind of weird because it's such a simple hand and our opponents give us little information, but if people could elaborate and there thought process a little more here, that would be great.

The other alternative is wait for Curtains to post and follow him blindly.

[/ QUOTE ]


making it 350 is reraising to just over the pot size. this is optimal. you are forcing your opponents to make a mistake by calling such a big raise and this will likely thin the field to just 1 or 2 callers from my experience. raising to 500 bloats the pot and doesnt allow a whole lot of room to escape if something happens, i feel like its spewing just a bit. shoving i just dont think gets called enough to be profitable and i dont know if the pot is big enough to warrant just ending it now by shoving. finally, by making it 350 you do all of the above and make the pot big enough that you can get it AI and allow TP/other random draw or hand to pay you off on the flop where the pot IS big enough to warrant pushing, but not so big that you cant get away from a terrible flop or heavy action where its clear youre beat.


also, curtains told me to post this [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. Ship it.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

AMT,

Nice post however if I only get 1,2 callers I'm pretty much never folding postflop.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
AMT,

Nice post however if I only get 1,2 callers I'm pretty much never folding postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQJ monotone to start, there are many other awful boards depending on the exact action. Can't hurt to have the option.

But that is just a side benefit, mostly what you are trying to do is narrow the field without blowing everyone out of the water.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AMT,

Nice post however if I only get 1,2 callers I'm pretty much never folding postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQJ monotone to start, there are many other awful boards depending on the exact action. Can't hurt to have the option.

But that is just a side benefit, mostly what you are trying to do is narrow the field without blowing everyone out of the water.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only red monontone, and even then I'm still tilt pushing.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AMT,

Nice post however if I only get 1,2 callers I'm pretty much never folding postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQJ monotone to start, there are many other awful boards depending on the exact action. Can't hurt to have the option.

But that is just a side benefit, mostly what you are trying to do is narrow the field without blowing everyone out of the water.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only red monontone, and even then I'm still tilt pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]


im rarely folding of course but there are times that it would happen, 350 is just a nice balance. i suppose 400 isnt spewing much but i dont see as much of a point to it if theres no need for it.


ship it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that I'm getting fairly varied answers from respected posters, and with no real reasoning behind any of it. I'm aware reasoning here is kind of weird because it's such a simple hand and our opponents give us little information, but if people could elaborate and there thought process a little more here, that would be great.

The other alternative is wait for Curtains to post and follow him blindly.

[/ QUOTE ]


making it 350 is reraising to just over the pot size. this is optimal. you are forcing your opponents to make a mistake by calling such a big raise and this will likely thin the field to just 1 or 2 callers from my experience. raising to 500 bloats the pot and doesnt allow a whole lot of room to escape if something happens, i feel like its spewing just a bit. shoving i just dont think gets called enough to be profitable and i dont know if the pot is big enough to warrant just ending it now by shoving. finally, by making it 350 you do all of the above and make the pot big enough that you can get it AI and allow TP/other random draw or hand to pay you off on the flop where the pot IS big enough to warrant pushing, but not so big that you cant get away from a terrible flop or heavy action where its clear youre beat.


also, curtains told me to post this [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of your opponents might not be making a mistake calling for set value if a chain reaction gets set off before them. You don't want this.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

just make a good sized raise... jeez.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

I make it 5-6 times BB.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
just make a good sized raise... jeez.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you intentionally respond to old posts?

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that I'm getting fairly varied answers from respected posters, and with no real reasoning behind any of it. I'm aware reasoning here is kind of weird because it's such a simple hand and our opponents give us little information, but if people could elaborate and there thought process a little more here, that would be great.

The other alternative is wait for Curtains to post and follow him blindly.

[/ QUOTE ]


making it 350 is reraising to just over the pot size. this is optimal. you are forcing your opponents to make a mistake by calling such a big raise and this will likely thin the field to just 1 or 2 callers from my experience. raising to 500 bloats the pot and doesnt allow a whole lot of room to escape if something happens, i feel like its spewing just a bit. shoving i just dont think gets called enough to be profitable and i dont know if the pot is big enough to warrant just ending it now by shoving. finally, by making it 350 you do all of the above and make the pot big enough that you can get it AI and allow TP/other random draw or hand to pay you off on the flop where the pot IS big enough to warrant pushing, but not so big that you cant get away from a terrible flop or heavy action where its clear youre beat.

also, curtains told me to post this [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

This would offer underpairs nearly 8:1 to call if they believe they can stack you when they flop a set. 9:1 if there's an additional caller. And you are then oop, with a substantially large pot. Let's say CO+1 and the SB call, and the flop is K97 two-tone. SB Checks. What's your play? I'm not really liking the reverse implied odds for the AA here. The pot is now T1400, and what are you going to bet here that pushes out a draw but doesn't leave you committed? Or are you going to check it with 2 other people in the pot? If you, say, lead T600, can you now fold when CO+1 comes back over the top all-in? What if SB calls and then leads the turn? There's just a lot of ambiguity here.

It seems like the T350 raise is +cEV, but as Sklansky says, the chips you win are worth less than the chips you lose. Consequently, it seems possible the T350 raise is borderline enough to make it a +cEV -$EV move. Even making it T450 goes a long way to making sure no one has the correct odds to call you.

Anyhow, that's why I'd be wary about only making it T350 to go here. But I'm interested in knowing why I'm wrong, which seems likely. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just make a good sized raise... jeez.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you intentionally respond to old posts?

[/ QUOTE ]

he'll get back to you in a couple weeks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

fwiw, i would either raise to 300-350 or push. i'd usually just go to ~325.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

I prefer a raise to about 475. The best result for you would be someone thinking you are trying to steal the dead money, and I believe those people will be more suspicious if you raise slightly more. This, combined with the fact that the big raise is less likely to set off the dreaded dominoes, means we need a 450-500 raise.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just make a good sized raise... jeez.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you intentionally respond to old posts?

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry if that didnt come out right.. but you would have to try if you wanted to play this hand wrong... any raise more than 5x is good...

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

Overbet a little extra, might be read as weak - 420 - 480 to go

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

Raise to 320 I'd say.

Re: $109s Stupid Preflop AA Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just make a good sized raise... jeez.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you intentionally respond to old posts?

[/ QUOTE ]

he'll get back to you in a couple weeks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

fwiw, i would either raise to 300-350 or push. i'd usually just go to ~325.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love this thread to keep going because I strongly disagreee with the ~300-325 crowd. Any thoughts on why you'd do that? I kind of posted why I don't like it above.