put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

CO is 17/4/2 over 575 hands, I had thought he was reasonable postflop. The rest of the table is too loose and too passive.

Effective stacks: $198

Preflop: MP and CO limp, I call in SB w/ K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], BB checks.

Flop ($8): Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I check (planning to raise), it checks around.

Turn ($8): 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I bet $6, folded to CO who raises to $12, I re-raise to $56, he pushes to make it $194????

I regret my flop check. Should I have just bet out for $8 or something?

Turn: in general, is re-raising spots like this bad? After he pushes I'm really confused. I can't really put him on a hand, but I can't really call either...

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

Could be slow playing from CO on the flop but that is unlikely given the FD out there. It really looks like the 5 helped him. I'll put my money on him having 55 or 67s and fold.

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

I like your plan to check-raise the flop. We are too deep for a bet-3-bet line. I flat call CO's raise on the turn and try to hit on the river, probably check/folding if unimproved.

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

I would lead the flop for 6-8.

Villain looks to be a nit, so he could very well have a 55 or 76 here. I'm not sure I like the 3bet on the turn - what are you hoping to get him to fold? I don't think Axs is a large part of his range here - I just can't see this villain minraising a FD on the turn - so that would make him likely to be only raising with a hand that can stand up to your 3bet.

I'm folding to the push.

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

I'd say he has either mid-bottom pair plus an over with a draw, or he's been slow playing pocket queens (unlikely). But he did limp into the pot, so he could even have a 6h7h.

It's hard to put him on a hand with the information that you've gotten in this hand. Your re-raise was a mistake in my opinion, especially such a large one.

I think it would be time for a laydown because of a made straight, two pair, or a higher flush draw. Middle pair with a flush draw with one to come is suicidal.




Follow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

first off, the fact that he limps from late position obv removes AQ, maybe even KQ, from the equation (i feel position alone is enough to raise KQ here if playing it at all). Check behind on a suited board with a possible straight draw tells me the villain is not sitting on a made hand after the flop. Min raising your turn bet is a red flag to me. Nobody min raises to make you fold. I think its probably the villain has made his set or straight and you saw weakness in his minraise exactly as he wanted you to. my money is on 5 5 or 67 suited, although i suppose A 8 or A 5 hearts is not out of the question. My line would be flat call turn raise and re-eval river. If you dont improve and he doesnt back down i c/f rive. Anything small enough to call here is probably a value bet.

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

A few qualms. First off, I rarely ever check raise with this as it is a limped pot, and there is no guarantee that someone is going to bet. The only time that I will check raise in multiway limped pot is when I have a vulnerable but strong hand such as bottom two and I want to either make the pot big on the flop, or wait until the turn to press a bigger edge if it gets checked through. The second thing that I hate is the 3 bet on the turn. When a 17/4 minraises me, I immediately think that he wants action, and I think calling is the play on the turn. As far as putting him on a hand, I agree with the poster above who said that the 5 helped him.

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

I don't like the turn reraise.

joseki, what is your go rank?

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

Flop I can either see leading, c/c or c/r all being OK, so ghe check is fine IMO

Turn lead is good given flop action. But you gotta just call the minraise....3betting is bad IMO. After he pushes, he has 55/67 most the time

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

I'm pretty much agreeing with everyone up to this point. Check-raise on the flop is ok, but I think you might want to lead out to thin the field and find out where you stand. Either play is fine though. Bet-3bet is too aggressive in your position, because his minraise doesn't make sense for many if any hands that you can beat. I'd call the minraise and hope to catch that flush. Maybe if you draw two pair or trips you could bet/fold the river, but I think a better play in this situation would be to check/call if his bet isn't too fishy. As for the mess the 3-bet got you in on the turn, def fold, you're absolutely right that you can't call it, and I think the read for 67 or 5's is probably accurate

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

leading or checking is fine on this flop. Mixing up your play is FINE imo. I don't like 3 betting the turn, but if you call and hit you may not get much action... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

I lead this flop almost always in a limped pot. 3 bet on turn is just horrible. Fold to the push very quickly.

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

The tight/passive-aggressive rock flopped or turned a set, or turned a straight with 67s (probably not hearts, since he might have bet the flop with an OESFD).

So, I think you can fold here. K and 8 are no longer good outs for you. You basically need to river a flush to win. That is 9 outs * 2% (estimate) = 18% or very roughly 4:1 against. The pot odds are call 138 to win 276, or 2:1. So, it's a clear fold at this point.

I think when the rock min-raises the turn, call is in order to see if you hit on the river without pairing the board. If you hit, value bet so that a set will feel obligated to call. If you miss, check/fold.

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the turn reraise.

joseki, what is your go rank?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was around 1d before I started playing poker. Haven't played a game in 2 years.

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll put my money on him having 55 or 67s and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. also, I think a fold is in order even if his range is a little bigger than this.

Re: put him on a hand, please (200NL)
 

Thanks for the replies.

The crux of this is what the turn min-raise means from a nit/rock/tight-passive-aggressive. I think there is almost no chance he checks the flop with a made hand. If we're to believe he has anything at all the 5 had to help, but the only hands it could help are 55 or 76, and I'd expect a bigger raise with those. So, after his min-raise, I put him on hearts or air and thought I could fold air or maybe get a bad call from JhTh or the like.

FWIW, I folded after a short pause. I still think there is a good chance he was FOS, but I do feel a bit better about it after getting such a consensus here.

Do you guys really see super-tight/somewhat-aggressive players frequently play strong hands like this? This guy is a regular in the game and I think he's probably a winner. I think guys like this make money by playing big hands strongly against the jackasses, and using their reputations to pick up pots against observant opponents. Any thoughts on that?