Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average player?
 

I've probably logged 50x more HE hands than PLO/8 hands. However if I sit at the highest limits at Party for HE($25/50) its a pretty tough game and my win rate is still questioned(I'm a winning player at $10/20, but havn't logged enough hands at $25/50 to say for sure yet). However if I sit at the highest level of PLO/8($10/20) I feel totally comfortable and very much expect to have a winnning session most of the time.

And the mistakes I see even at the highest levels available on a site are insane. Just really bad poker.

What is it about this game that causes it to be so misplayed? Is it simply that because HE is the most popular game that has caused the average player to be pretty capapble at that? Are other non-HE games(stud for example) similarly soft?

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

Poker books. No more, no less. Most people aren't very intelligent (including most of 2+2), and without someone to take them by the hand and show them how to play, they can't figure it out on their own.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

stud/8 is weaker at lower limits... not sure at higher limits.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

i think the reason a lot of people like plo8 is because:

- there are a lot of opportunities to make bluffs that are relatively risk free and often work

- you get twice as many cards (with a lot more chances to make bluffing and scooping hands)

- it's a big bet game that makes the previous two points even more compelling

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average player?
 

Just to give you guys an idea of what I'm talking about here are a few hands that I played tonight at $10/20. Keep in mind this is all during one 2 hour(approx.) session, so its not like I'm randomly picking out a bunch of hands over a long period of time to stress my point. Also keep in mind that this is the highest limits available on Party Poker.

***** Hand History for Game 4930122394 *****
$2000 PL Omaha Hi-Lo - Friday, August 11, 23:57:40 ET 2006
Table Table 95206 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 7: RexxBanner ( $11652.33 )
Seat 5: IcyPots ( $2819.83 )
Seat 1: HUGSNLING ( $1087.50 )
Seat 9: tigerdr ( $1533 )
Seat 8: crazyapk ( $3368 )
Seat 2: CALLSPUTS ( $2388 )
Seat 3: landcruiser6 ( $661.70 )
Seat 10: luckyjill ( $1850 )
Seat 6: Piranha2 ( $580 )
Seat 4: GradyYT ( $980 )
tigerdr posts small blind [$10].
luckyjill posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to IcyPots [ 2h Ad Td Jh ]
HUGSNLING calls [$20].
Sunday Million satellites are running 24/7 - check the lobby for your options to qualify and win big this Sunday!
CALLSPUTS folds.
landcruiser6 folds.
GradyYT folds.
IcyPots calls [$20].
Piranha2 folds.
RexxBanner calls [$20].
crazyapk folds.
tigerdr calls [$10].
luckyjill raises [$20].
HUGSNLING calls [$20].
IcyPots calls [$20].
RexxBanner calls [$20].
tigerdr calls [$20].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ah, Ac, 7c ]
tigerdr checks.
luckyjill bets [$197].
HUGSNLING calls [$197].
IcyPots calls [$197].
RexxBanner folds.
tigerdr folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]
luckyjill bets [$788].
HUGSNLING calls [$788].
IcyPots is all-In [$2582.83]
luckyjill is all-In [$825]
HUGSNLING is all-In [$62.50]
** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]
luckyjill shows [ Jd, As, Js, 3d ] three of a kind, aces.
HUGSNLING doesn't show [ Kd, 4h, 3s, 2d ] a pair of aces.
IcyPots shows [ 2h, Ad, Td, Jh ] a full house, Aces full of tens.
IcyPots wins $969.83 from side pot #2 with a full house, Aces full of tens.
IcyPots wins $1525 from side pot #1 with a full house, Aces full of tens.
IcyPots wins $3339.50 from the main pot with a full house, Aces full of tens.
There was no qualifying low hand.


***** Hand History for Game 4929808897 *****
$2000 PL Omaha Hi-Lo - Friday, August 11, 23:11:53 ET 2006
Table Table 95206 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 6: NUT_BOY ( $1240.50 )
Seat 7: RexxBanner ( $9133.33 )
Seat 8: BigFlick26 ( $1785.64 )
Seat 5: IcyPots ( $2746.33 )
Seat 1: HUGSNLING ( $1010.50 )
Seat 4: gamble24x7 ( $1349.68 )
Seat 2: GradyYT ( $1452.50 )
Seat 3: ChecknLittle ( $397 )
Seat 10: phuck_fill ( $1980 )
Seat 9: tigerdr ( $1021.50 )
ChecknLittle posts small blind [$10].
gamble24x7 posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to IcyPots [ 2d As Ac Jd ]
IcyPots calls [$20].
NUT_BOY raises [$90].
RexxBanner folds.
BigFlick26 folds.
tigerdr calls [$90].
phuck_fill calls [$90].
HUGSNLING folds.
GradyYT folds.
ChecknLittle folds.
gamble24x7 folds.
IcyPots raises [$460].
NUT_BOY is all-In [$1150.50]
tigerdr folds.
phuck_fill folds.
IcyPots calls [$760.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, 2h, 9c ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
IcyPots shows [ 2d, As, Ac, Jd ] two pairs, aces and threes.
NUT_BOY shows [ 5s, 2c, 4s, Jc ] two pairs, threes and twos.
NUT_BOY shows 7,5,4,3,2 for low.
IcyPots wins $1344 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and threes.
NUT_BOY wins Lo ($1344) from the main pot with 7,5,4,3,2.


There were actually a bunch more hands that I wanted to post including one where someone called me for $700 on the turn with a second nut low draw(A3), but I didn't feel like looking through my HHs too hard.

I mean, I'm not complaining about this gold mine, I'm just shocked that these games can be so soft.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average player?
 

Heres another one. Just a fabulous value bet on the river, lol...

***** Hand History for Game 4930226383 *****
$2000 PL Omaha Hi-Lo - Saturday, August 12, 00:15:17 ET 2006
Table Table 95206 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 7: RexxBanner ( $11896.71 )
Seat 5: IcyPots ( $5672.57 )
Seat 9: tigerdr ( $1804.97 )
Seat 8: crazyapk ( $5189.24 )
Seat 2: CALLSPUTS ( $2303.24 )
Seat 3: landcruiser6 ( $501.70 )
Seat 4: GradyYT ( $930 )
Seat 10: bradph ( $888.93 )
Seat 1: tanguerayover ( $0 )
Seat 6: savsams ( $2000 )
landcruiser6 posts small blind [$10].
GradyYT posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to IcyPots [ 3c Jc 3d 5h ]
IcyPots folds.
RexxBanner calls [$20].
crazyapk calls [$20].
tigerdr raises [$40].
bradph calls [$40].
CALLSPUTS calls [$40].
landcruiser6 raises [$250].
GradyYT folds.
RexxBanner folds.
crazyapk folds.
tigerdr calls [$220].
bradph calls [$220].
CALLSPUTS folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qc, Tc, 8c ]
landcruiser6 is all-In [$241.70]
tigerdr calls [$241.70].
bradph calls [$241.70].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
tigerdr checks.
bradph checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 5c ]
tigerdr checks.
bradph bets [$20].
tigerdr calls [$20].
bradph shows [ As, Kd, 6c, 4c ] a flush, queen high.
bradph shows 8,6,5,4,A for low.
landcruiser6 shows [ 7h, Ad, Ah, 6d ] a straight, four to eight.
landcruiser6 shows 8,6,5,4,A for low.
tigerdr doesn't show [ 5d, 9h, Jd, Th ] a straight, eight to queen.
bradph wins $20 from side pot #1 with a flush, queen high.
bradph wins Lo ($20) from side pot #1 with 8,6,5,4,A.
bradph wins $801.05 from the main pot with a flush, queen high.
landcruiser6 wins Lo ($400.53) from the main pot with 8,6,5,4,A.
bradph wins Lo ($400.52) from the main pot with 8,6,5,4,A.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

I'm 99.9999999% sure but I played with Bradph today at the $100 buy-in PLO8 tables on Party...Did he buy-in short?

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

I really don't remember. Clearly though, he doesn't belong playing that high.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average player?
 

IMHO the reason is that split-pot games are an order of magnitude more complicated that single pot games, and PL is more complicated than either L, or NL. Put it together, and this game requires tremendously more strategic awareness than most. For that reason I think even though it isn't that hard to gain enough knowlege to play adequately pre-flop, and not that hard to play multi-way post flop, MOST people really do not have the where-with-all to play isolated for their stack post-flop-- which is the key to this game at higher levels.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

I ended up going to this game and watching and when I went to bed at like 4AM he was sitting with like 5 dimes in front of him so it makes me wonder how hard that game is depending on who is playing...

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Poker books. . . . Most people aren't very intelligent . . ., and without someone to take them by the hand and show them how to play, they can't figure it out on their own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

So getting back to one of my initial questions: Are the other non-HE games such as stud also played as poorly even at the higher levels?

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

i've seen some pretty atrocious HU/SH LHE play up to 100/200.

actually, there seems to be some really bad HU/SH play in every game i've ever observed, but LHE is the only one i feel competent enough in to comment on.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
So getting back to one of my initial questions: Are the other non-HE games such as stud also played as poorly even at the higher levels?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play high limits, but in 15/30 Stud 8 I've had hundreds of hands with opponents capping 5th/6th street against me when they're drawing dead and can do no better than win half the pot. I've been called by no pair when I'm showing 4 low cards quite a few times and I was recently called when my opponent couldn't beat my upcards. Unfortunately Stud 8 is like the worst game ever to multitable, combined with no game selection, making it something best played while watching TV for some relaxing free money.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

Interesting. I don't think I'm nearly as skilled in stud 8 as O/8, but I'd definitely be willing to learn. With that lack of game selection, do you think it'd be worth my time to seriously pursue it?

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

I suck at Omaha 8, but I'm guessing that at the middle limits like 10/20-30/60 plenty of people make absolutely terrible calls in the hopes of miracling half the pot their way just like they do in Stud 8.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I suck at Omaha 8, but I'm guessing that at the middle limits like 10/20-30/60 plenty of people make absolutely terrible calls in the hopes of miracling half the pot their way just like they do in Stud 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is correct.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

1. If theyre drawing to half the pot then they arent drawing dead.
2. In stud8, opponents are often getting the correct odds to make calls that look really horrible. I dont think that its possible to mess up limit stud8 as badly as PLO8 without really trying.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

Your flop call in hand 1 sucks.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. If theyre drawing to half the pot then they arent drawing dead.
2. In stud8, opponents are often getting the correct odds to make calls that look really horrible. I dont think that its possible to mess up limit stud8 as badly as PLO8 without really trying.

[/ QUOTE ]

If my opponent caps with 2 high pair/trips on 5th/6th against my low+straight draw, they are drawing dead. They cannot win the pot, they can only lose it or get their money back.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

For a game so simple a lot of people play Razz horribly

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your flop call in hand 1 sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]I very much disagree, but I'm willing to hear your reasoning.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
(I'm a winning player at $10/20, but havn't logged enough hands at $25/50 to say for sure yet).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds to me like you are a slightly positive breakeven player at 10/20

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

I have 50,000 hands in my PT, and I'm winning over that span- not sure what your point is. Regardless, why are you bringing up petty issues like this and grammar/spelling errors in my threads?

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your flop call in hand 1 sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]I very much disagree, but I'm willing to hear your reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Overcalling a pot bet with A 2 J 10 on an A A 7 board is retarded. Every card in the deck other than a jack or ten leaves you completely lost. Are you expecting to call down in a 3 way pot and show trip aces with a jack kicker to win the high half?

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. If theyre drawing to half the pot then they arent drawing dead.
2. In stud8, opponents are often getting the correct odds to make calls that look really horrible. I dont think that its possible to mess up limit stud8 as badly as PLO8 without really trying.

[/ QUOTE ]

If my opponent caps with 2 high pair/trips on 5th/6th against my low+straight draw, they are drawing dead. They cannot win the pot, they can only lose it or get their money back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Help me out here, but if there are say 10 bb in the pot when I call 1 bb on 6th, wouldn't I get more than my money back if I took half the pot? Unless you are talking about PLS8 or some other mystery stud variation.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your flop call in hand 1 sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]I very much disagree, but I'm willing to hear your reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Overcalling a pot bet with A 2 J 10 on an A A 7 board is retarded. Every card in the deck other than a jack or ten leaves you completely lost. Are you expecting to call down in a 3 way pot and show trip aces with a jack kicker to win the high half?

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize that there are 6 tens and jacks out there right? And you do realize that if he has A7 or even AK then one of those six outs may very well get me his stack(or in this case, if hes a bad player then he'll pay me off with a naked ace). Furthermore, the fact that there were 3 players in the pot gives a strong indication that someone is going for low and gives me even more EV since obviously if my T or J comes out that does not complete the low. I called a bet for just under $200. I won almost $3000. Now I agree that I can't count on winning $3000 all the time in this spot, but clearly the implied odds justified the call here.

Moreover, you're giving his pot sized bet too much credit. He would do that with any ace. And he raised preflop, which gives an indication that he has a strong preflop hand(that turns out to be not so true, but we don't know that at the time I'm deciding whether or not to make this call). And what hands with an ace are strong? Usually AA(which we can rule out since I have one) or a strong low hand with flush draws. Therefore, it is a possibility that he has a strong low hand and I have the best hand on the flop. My call pretty much tells him that I also have an ace, so its very likely that a good player would slow down on the turn if he didn't have a full house or an ace with a good kicker and I could win the pot on the turn. Furthermore, lets say that he is a good, tight player- Unless he fills up on the turn, hes just as scared of the possibility of me having a full house as I would be of him....its very possible for me to knock a hand like AQ out with a good sized bet.

And finally, as if all that wasn't enough, lets also mention that I have position on both players in this hand.

I think that folding here is overly tight.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

And btw...

Saying my call "sucks" in your first post and then calling my play "retarded" in the second post really isn't the way to have a civilized discussion.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

Well, you are 50/50 against a low draw with an A, if his 4th card is lower than a J. Any A with 2 low and a Q or K and you are about a 3:1 dog.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1900453
pokenum -o8 2h ad td jh - as 2s 6d qh -- ah ac 7c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 7c Ah
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ad Td Jh 2h 114 243 522 55 0 96 48 0.256
As 2s 6d Qh 474 522 243 55 472 0 48 0.744

Any A with a Q or K and you are pretty much a 2:1 dog:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1900456
pokenum -o8 2h ad td jh - as 2s 9d qh -- ah ac 7c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 7c Ah
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ad Td Jh 2h 218 228 537 55 0 0 160 0.354
As 2s 9d Qh 387 537 228 55 0 0 160 0.646

You are also a dog to a 234x with clubs:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1900461
pokenum -o8 2h ad td jh - 3s 2s 4c qc -- ah ac 7c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 7c Ah
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ad Td Jh 2h 185 628 192 0 0 120 9 0.498
3s 2s Qc 4c 189 192 628 0 601 0 9 0.502

IOW, most reasonable hands that call you here are ahead of you, and rarely will you have an advantage. You caught your perfect card on the turn and got called, yay for you, but what do you do when you miss (which will happen 85% of the time or so)? If a low hits on the turn then you are even worse off than before and will have a hard time calling a pot bet (I'd assume).

I'm not trying to question your play, but this doesn't really seem like the type of hand that could properly illustrate great poker skill all that well. It does show that there are some iffy players at that level, no question there.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

The situation in question was three-handed which changes the equities drastically (given certain conditions).

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
but this doesn't really seem like the type of hand that could properly illustrate great poker skill all that well. It does show that there are some iffy players at that level, no question there.

[/ QUOTE ]For the record, the intent of those hands was to show the iffy play and not to make any comment whatsoever on my play.

As for your post, I agree that I'm most likely a dog, especially considering there are 3 players and there is a chance that I may be playing for 1/2 the pot. However, I believe that we're dealing with implied odds here. If the T or J comes then we have the absolute nuts on the turn and there is no low still. More importantly, a good player probably won't be able to draw to his low after you bet(he obviously wasn't a good player).

Now as you eluded to, we had about a 15% chance of hitting our draw and an 85% chance of missing it. So if we lose that $200 85 times, that means that we have to make about $1150 on average when we do hit it(there is already over $500, so we'd only have to make $650 more on the turn/river). I think that those implied odds are worthwhile.

And of course, this doesn't even take into account that we may just have the best hand and/or we may be able to win the pot on the turn if the other guy doesn't hit a full house.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your flop call in hand 1 sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]I very much disagree, but I'm willing to hear your reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Overcalling a pot bet with A 2 J 10 on an A A 7 board is retarded. Every card in the deck other than a jack or ten leaves you completely lost. Are you expecting to call down in a 3 way pot and show trip aces with a jack kicker to win the high half?

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize that there are 6 tens and jacks out there right? And you do realize that if he has A7 or even AK then one of those six outs may very well get me his stack(or in this case, if hes a bad player then he'll pay me off with a naked ace). Furthermore, the fact that there were 3 players in the pot gives a strong indication that someone is going for low and gives me even more EV since obviously if my T or J comes out that does not complete the low. I called a bet for just under $200. I won almost $3000. Now I agree that I can't count on winning $3000 all the time in this spot, but clearly the implied odds justified the call here.

Moreover, you're giving his pot sized bet too much credit. He would do that with any ace. And he raised preflop, which gives an indication that he has a strong preflop hand(that turns out to be not so true, but we don't know that at the time I'm deciding whether or not to make this call). And what hands with an ace are strong? Usually AA(which we can rule out since I have one) or a strong low hand with flush draws. Therefore, it is a possibility that he has a strong low hand and I have the best hand on the flop. My call pretty much tells him that I also have an ace, so its very likely that a good player would slow down on the turn if he didn't have a full house or an ace with a good kicker and I could win the pot on the turn. Furthermore, lets say that he is a good, tight player- Unless he fills up on the turn, hes just as scared of the possibility of me having a full house as I would be of him....its very possible for me to knock a hand like AQ out with a good sized bet.

And finally, as if all that wasn't enough, lets also mention that I have position on both players in this hand.

I think that folding here is overly tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only card you can hit to have a prayer of bluffing is a 9. If a low card comes and its potted again, calling with AJ is terrible. You'll be getting freerolled without any idea if your hand is good enough. Plus, if a low card comes, the money definitely will be going in on the turn. Calling with A J 10 on that board is basically saying, to scoop this pot, I'm gonna have to hit a 6 outer on the turn, (you really only had 4), then dodge 20+ outs on the river. Folding the flop isn't overly tight. It's realizing that the pot will be extremely difficult to scoop, and that you are probably way behind in the first place.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

BTW, just to show another hand illustrating my initial point:

***** Hand History for Game 4949050045 *****
$2000 PL Omaha Hi-Lo - Sunday, August 13, 21:07:51 ET 2006
Table Table 95206 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: rainaruby ( $2007 )
Seat 4: hilokunto ( $5220.87 )
Seat 5: qazxcvbnm333 ( $1974.50 )
Seat 8: slippery2 ( $15761.17 )
Seat 9: MAHA88 ( $1975.96 )
Seat 6: IcyPots ( $2094 )
Seat 1: oiltrader ( $2975 )
Seat 2: Rushin ( $330 )
Seat 7: TOPT_ ( $2047 )
Seat 10: IWANTURSTACK ( $1753 )
hilokunto posts small blind [$10].
qazxcvbnm333 is sitting out.
IcyPots posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to IcyPots [ 7h Kc Ts Qs ]
TOPT_ folds.
slippery2 calls [$20].
MAHA88 folds.
qazxcvbnm333 has left the table.
IWANTURSTACK calls [$20].
ClMeFishmyl has joined the table.
oiltrader has been reconnected and has 5 seconds to act.
oiltrader calls [$20].
Rushin folds.
rainaruby calls [$20].
hilokunto calls [$10].
IcyPots checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Th, 7d, 7c ]
hilokunto checks.
IcyPots bets [$117].
slippery2 folds.
IWANTURSTACK folds.
oiltrader calls [$117].
rainaruby folds.
>You have options at Every Penny (No DP) Table!.
hilokunto folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
IcyPots bets [$351].
>You have options at Every Penny (No DP) Table!.
oiltrader calls [$351].
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
IcyPots bets [$1053].
oiltrader calls [$1053].
IcyPots shows [ 7h, Kc, Ts, Qs ] a full house, Sevens full of queens.
oiltrader doesn't show [ 4c, 7s, Ac, 5d ] three of a kind, sevens.
IcyPots wins $3159 from the main pot with a full house, Sevens full of queens.
There was no qualifying low hand.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your flop call in hand 1 sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]I very much disagree, but I'm willing to hear your reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Overcalling a pot bet with A 2 J 10 on an A A 7 board is retarded. Every card in the deck other than a jack or ten leaves you completely lost. Are you expecting to call down in a 3 way pot and show trip aces with a jack kicker to win the high half?

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize that there are 6 tens and jacks out there right? And you do realize that if he has A7 or even AK then one of those six outs may very well get me his stack(or in this case, if hes a bad player then he'll pay me off with a naked ace). Furthermore, the fact that there were 3 players in the pot gives a strong indication that someone is going for low and gives me even more EV since obviously if my T or J comes out that does not complete the low. I called a bet for just under $200. I won almost $3000. Now I agree that I can't count on winning $3000 all the time in this spot, but clearly the implied odds justified the call here.

Moreover, you're giving his pot sized bet too much credit. He would do that with any ace. And he raised preflop, which gives an indication that he has a strong preflop hand(that turns out to be not so true, but we don't know that at the time I'm deciding whether or not to make this call). And what hands with an ace are strong? Usually AA(which we can rule out since I have one) or a strong low hand with flush draws. Therefore, it is a possibility that he has a strong low hand and I have the best hand on the flop. My call pretty much tells him that I also have an ace, so its very likely that a good player would slow down on the turn if he didn't have a full house or an ace with a good kicker and I could win the pot on the turn. Furthermore, lets say that he is a good, tight player- Unless he fills up on the turn, hes just as scared of the possibility of me having a full house as I would be of him....its very possible for me to knock a hand like AQ out with a good sized bet.

And finally, as if all that wasn't enough, lets also mention that I have position on both players in this hand.

I think that folding here is overly tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only card you can hit to have a prayer of bluffing is a 9. If a low card comes and its potted again, calling with AJ is terrible. You'll be getting freerolled without any idea if your hand is good enough. Plus, if a low card comes, the money definitely will be going in on the turn. Calling with A J 10 on that board is basically saying, to scoop this pot, I'm gonna have to hit a 6 outer on the turn, (you really only had 4), then dodge 20+ outs on the river. Folding the flop isn't overly tight. It's realizing that the pot will be extremely difficult to scoop, and that you are probably way behind in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a high card comes and both players check, then a pot sized bet would take down the pot against 2 good players. You have to realize that any guy with a made high hand would not be checking with the low draw out there, so a check indicates that he does not the full house- we can be 99% sure of that. That is the importance of having position in this hand and is the reason that I included position in my list of reasons for calling.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
If a high card comes and both players check, then a pot sized bet would take down the pot against 2 good players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not questioning your strategy for the hand -- but I do want to point out that assuming you are playing against "good players" even a majority of the time is a very dangerous assumption, even at the higher limits. This, in fact, appears to be the point of your posts -- showing that the play is suspect. So I am not sure why you would want to make plays or defend strategy on the assumption that your adversaries are "good players". I have made this mistake myself (giving too much credit to my opponents) way too often lately.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a high card comes and both players check, then a pot sized bet would take down the pot against 2 good players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not questioning your strategy for the hand -- but I do want to point out that assuming you are playing against "good players" even a majority of the time is a very dangerous assumption, even at the higher limits. This, in fact, appears to be the point of your posts -- showing that the play is suspect. So I am not sure why you would want to make plays or defend strategy on the assumption that your adversaries are "good players". I have made this mistake myself (giving too much credit to my opponents) way too often lately.

[/ QUOTE ]Very fair point. I guess that if my opponent checked his trip aces on the turn, I would then assume that hes a decent player due to the fact that he made a tough check. But even still, I agree with you that I shouldn't be assuming this.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your flop call in hand 1 sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]I very much disagree, but I'm willing to hear your reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Overcalling a pot bet with A 2 J 10 on an A A 7 board is retarded. Every card in the deck other than a jack or ten leaves you completely lost. Are you expecting to call down in a 3 way pot and show trip aces with a jack kicker to win the high half?

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize that there are 6 tens and jacks out there right? And you do realize that if he has A7 or even AK then one of those six outs may very well get me his stack(or in this case, if hes a bad player then he'll pay me off with a naked ace). Furthermore, the fact that there were 3 players in the pot gives a strong indication that someone is going for low and gives me even more EV since obviously if my T or J comes out that does not complete the low. I called a bet for just under $200. I won almost $3000. Now I agree that I can't count on winning $3000 all the time in this spot, but clearly the implied odds justified the call here.

Moreover, you're giving his pot sized bet too much credit. He would do that with any ace. And he raised preflop, which gives an indication that he has a strong preflop hand(that turns out to be not so true, but we don't know that at the time I'm deciding whether or not to make this call). And what hands with an ace are strong? Usually AA(which we can rule out since I have one) or a strong low hand with flush draws. Therefore, it is a possibility that he has a strong low hand and I have the best hand on the flop. My call pretty much tells him that I also have an ace, so its very likely that a good player would slow down on the turn if he didn't have a full house or an ace with a good kicker and I could win the pot on the turn. Furthermore, lets say that he is a good, tight player- Unless he fills up on the turn, hes just as scared of the possibility of me having a full house as I would be of him....its very possible for me to knock a hand like AQ out with a good sized bet.

And finally, as if all that wasn't enough, lets also mention that I have position on both players in this hand.

I think that folding here is overly tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only card you can hit to have a prayer of bluffing is a 9. If a low card comes and its potted again, calling with AJ is terrible. You'll be getting freerolled without any idea if your hand is good enough. Plus, if a low card comes, the money definitely will be going in on the turn. Calling with A J 10 on that board is basically saying, to scoop this pot, I'm gonna have to hit a 6 outer on the turn, (you really only had 4), then dodge 20+ outs on the river. Folding the flop isn't overly tight. It's realizing that the pot will be extremely difficult to scoop, and that you are probably way behind in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]Even though my opponent ended up having 234, we can't necessiarly assume that. So a 2 or a 3 may ruin his low and allow us to bluff as well.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average play
 

2-7 TD... basically nobody can play this game well.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average player?
 

Phil is right, its an easy game because there is no literature. The only other game ive played on line that theres been little to nothing written about was 5CD. It was incredibly soft at the low limits, but the higher limit games looked pretty tough.

Re: Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average player?
 

I play mainly SNG's/MTT's for NHLE, but have always found O/8 as a great second game if Im in a slump or tourneys are dry.

But are there enough players on most of the sites to really make a comfortable living off just O/8?