God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t400 with t25 antes (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t13643)
UTG+1 (t6110)
MP1 (t9900)
MP2 (t9510)
MP3 (t13361)
CO (t9170)
Button (t5361)
Hero (t11523)
BB (t7344)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, MP1 calls t400, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, Hero calls t200, BB checks

Flop: (t1425) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets t900</font>, BB calls t900, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>

Turn: (t3225) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Hero?

I didn't see fit to make any notes on Villain, so I'm assuming he's been fairly quiet. I imagine I'm perceived as opening a little light PF, but I haven't given Villain any reason to think I'm making a play in this situation. These stack sizes suck.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

I really don't think you have any choice but to check, and call a reasonable bet, I expect a check behind here most of the time. If he checks behind, half pot river as a blocking/value bet in 1? Ugh, hate this spot.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

With no notes, I bet half villian's remaining chips and then easily call his push. He didn't raise pf or on the flop, so I'd put him on a str8 draw or a pair here. You are well ahead of that range. If you check, a thinking villian pushes here. You bet says you are happy to call while leaving him a safe escape route.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

I certainly dont like the texture of the board considering he limped preflop.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

What scares you here? a 9-8 straight? there is no longer any possible flush. TPTK plays very well against a limper. I seriously doubt that TT or JJ limped here. If he has JT then that's poker.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

It seems like you're way ahead of his range (the only two hands he's likely to have that you're behind are 98 and 22) here, and with no flush draws he probably doesn't have that many outs if you're ahead. I can see an argument for another bet (maybe he'll call with something like KJ or QJ)or for a check/call (not that much risk of getting outdrawn if he checks behind).

What buy in level was this?

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

Sorry, this is a $50 freezeout on Stars.

And it case it wasn't clear, the limper folded on the flop. The unraised BB is the Villain in this hand.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

Could be behind JT too.

I bet again. Somewhere around 2k-2.5k looks good?

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

Well, we can be pretty sure our hero has lost this hand by the title so he may have been up against someone weak. Add KK, and QQ to the hands he can be afraid of . I've unfortunately seen them both played this way. We can't assume much about BBs hand. I'd still bet the turn but don't discount weak play or stupidity from the villain. JJ, 10 10, J10 may all be "monsters under the bed" but unfortunately possible as well.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Could be behind JT too.

I bet again. Somewhere around 2k-2.5k looks good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you folding or calling if Villain pushes?

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

Villain's likely holdings at this point:

We're ahead of Jx and KQ.

We're behind J2, T2, JT and 98.

I doubt he's holding anything else.

I think I go into check/call mode so that Jx doesn't fold and we minimize the damage against all the hands that are beating us. If he bets the turn I probably call. If we check to him and he bets the river again we have to give serious thought to folding, as I think Jx at that point is almost always checking behind.

EDIT: Villain could also be holding 22. I don't think 77, TT, or JJ are very likely, although there's a small chance.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

Paul,

Why can't Villain have some sort of halfway decent ten or worse jack based on the flop action? SB doesn't need a jack to bet the flop with nobody raising preflop. And he'd probably call a turn bet with worse jacks and possibly with strong tens too.

I think I bet 2.5k and call a push, but not happilly. Check/call is also not too bad here, but I'd call anything in that case, including a push.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

Hindsight is 20-20, but with a raise preflop you might have avoided this sticky situation.
As played you can't narrow his range too much, other than discounting pocket 10s, and JJs. Pocket 2s, J-10, 8-9, Q-9, QK, Jx, 10x, etc. are all very possible holdings.
c/f or bet 1/3 pot. cuss and fold to re-raise.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Being results oriented is 20-20, but with a raise preflop you might have avoided this sticky situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Preflop is fine with me. You're OOP so if you're gonna raise, you need to make it a big one. Why risk creating a big pot with AJo OOP? Completing/limping from the blinds is perfectly fine here.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

Calling preflop here is standard for me.

Dan, I would classify a "halfway decent ten" as possible but not that likely. A worse jack is very possible, as I said.

I don't know, I kind of just want to get to showdown here. I doubt we get a drawing hand to fold the turn and a hand that we're beating might fold. I think checking the turn and making a smallish bet on the river may be the way to go.

Meh, these spots give me fits.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

very routine c/c or b/f, IMO (flip a coin)

if you decide to c/c, c/something a blank.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

I'm with ucla, I'm heading into check/call mode here. I'd love it if villian pushed here, because I think that a push is much more likely a weaker J or something else that doesn't want to get called than a hand that beats us.

Thanks for posting these two hands (I read the second one first). Both are great for a post flop donk like me.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

adanthar,

If villain checks behind on the turn is a small river value/blocking bet appropriate (assuming a blank river)? Obviously we fold to a raise.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

I'm surprised by anyone who would bet/fold. This is essentially TPTK in a blind vs. blind situation. I mean, as BB, I probably call the SB's flop bet with almost any ten just to see what he does on the turn.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hindsight is 20-20, but with a raise preflop you might have avoided this sticky situation.
As played you can't narrow his range too much, other than discounting pocket 10s, and JJs. Pocket 2s, J-10, 8-9, Q-9, QK, Jx, 10x, etc. are all very possible holdings.
c/f or bet 1/3 pot. cuss and fold to re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a terrible spot to raise PF. There had not been much limping at the table, and I don't AJ is ahead of the limper's range, at least not by enough to make up for being out of position. And once I raise, I don't have many options post-flop.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

Check/call does seem correct, and AJo OOP is st I like to limp and evaluate on flop.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hindsight is 20-20, but with a raise preflop you might have avoided this sticky situation.
As played you can't narrow his range too much, other than discounting pocket 10s, and JJs. Pocket 2s, J-10, 8-9, Q-9, QK, Jx, 10x, etc. are all very possible holdings.
c/f or bet 1/3 pot. cuss and fold to re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a terrible spot to raise PF. There had not been much limping at the table, and I don't AJ is ahead of the limper's range, at least not by enough to make up for being out of position. And once I raise, I don't have many options post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
You think the limper is sand bagging with a monster?
If not, the only hands you're behind are pocket pairs, probably 2s-9s.
I'd expect a raise from AQ, AK.
AJ is a split, and the remaining A's you dominate.
A preflop raise should get you HU vs. the limper. If the flop hits with 1 face or less, bet out and take down the pot more often than not. The only flop that you should check to is one with a QK, especially if a 10 comes with it.
Preflop you've got position and most likely the best hand. Postflop, you'll be OOP, but first in vigorish will very likely take down the pot for you here.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

I would expand the likely hands that uclabruinz suggested as follows (remember he checked his BB preflop):

Any J,T,2
KQ,98,22-99

Out of these, the only hands you are behind on the turn are:
JT,J7,J2,T7,T2,72,22,77,98

If you are ahead, giving a free card gives him anywhere from 2-5 outs, unless he has KQ, where he has a ton of outs.

In this situation, you are betting in the dark if you bet, and you will fold most of the hands that you are currently beating, while you might get a call from a small-medium value bet on the river if it goes check-check.

I can't imagine that any play other than check/call is appropriate here. If he checks behind, value bet the river.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised by anyone who would bet/fold. This is essentially TPTK in a blind vs. blind situation. I mean, as BB, I probably call the SB's flop bet with almost any ten just to see what he does on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but you don't then go on to slowplay/raise KT on that turn...

if villain checks behind, of course you value bet (if a jack hits, consider the awesomeness of a CR shove)

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised by anyone who would bet/fold. This is essentially TPTK in a blind vs. blind situation. I mean, as BB, I probably call the SB's flop bet with almost any ten just to see what he does on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but you don't then go on to slowplay/raise KT on that turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true, but I was assuming we were talking about Villain's range up to the point Foucault posted, not his range after something occured on the turn.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

The general consensus seems to be to c/c the turn, but is this regardless of the size of the villain's bet?

min-bet?
1/3 pot?
1/2 pot?
pot?
shove?

do we c/c all of these? i see seke2 above says "yes"
but, if not...

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

[ QUOTE ]
With no notes, I bet half villian's remaining chips and then easily call his push. He didn't raise pf or on the flop, so I'd put him on a str8 draw or a pair here. You are well ahead of that range. If you check, a thinking villian pushes here. You bet says you are happy to call while leaving him a safe escape route.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you think a check makes him push an inferior hand, why do you bet half his stack and allow him to fold?

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

I hate AJ in this position - stack sizes do suck - I think I fire another bullet of around t1700 (?) as he could have AT-AK or something like a PP that he thinks he's ahead of. Maybe JT but he's in BB so would guess he just came along and hit something on the flop (maybe he has a J or T with lower kicker).

After that I'm done with the hand and folding to a push.

PS Wow back from the WSOP so soon I thought you would have stuck around to pwn the smaller tourney's afterwards!

PPS Maybe now it's time to change your loc from "Busting Cripples" to "Hangin' with Annie Duke" or something like that? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

Go into c/c mode as a hand that beats you *probably* won't get in by the river out of fear that he'll lose you, and you make close to as much against hands that are losing to you.

If he checks the turn, value bet the river.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised by anyone who would bet/fold. This is essentially TPTK in a blind vs. blind situation. I mean, as BB, I probably call the SB's flop bet with almost any ten just to see what he does on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but you don't then go on to slowplay/raise KT on that turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true, but I was assuming we were talking about Villain's range up to the point Foucault posted, not his range after something occured on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

let's try this again

you bet the flop, he calls

you bet the turn, he raises

his range does/does not have KT in it (circle one)

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t400 with t25 antes (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t13643)
UTG+1 (t6110)
MP1 (t9900)
MP2 (t9510)
MP3 (t13361)
CO (t9170)
Button (t5361)
Hero (t11523)
BB (t7344)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, MP1 calls t400, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, Hero calls t200, BB checks

Flop: (t1425) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets t900</font>, BB calls t900, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>

Turn: (t3225) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Hero?

I didn't see fit to make any notes on Villain, so I'm assuming he's been fairly quiet. I imagine I'm perceived as opening a little light PF, but I haven't given Villain any reason to think I'm making a play in this situation. These stack sizes suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about raising preflop?

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain's likely holdings at this point:

We're ahead of Jx and KQ.

We're behind J2, T2, JT and 98.

I doubt he's holding anything else.

I think I go into check/call mode so that Jx doesn't fold and we minimize the damage against all the hands that are beating us. If he bets the turn I probably call. If we check to him and he bets the river again we have to give serious thought to folding, as I think Jx at that point is almost always checking behind.

EDIT: Villain could also be holding 22. I don't think 77, TT, or JJ are very likely, although there's a small chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice analysis again.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Go into c/c mode as a hand that beats you *probably* won't get in by the river out of fear that he'll lose you, and you make close to as much against hands that are losing to you.

If he checks the turn, value bet the river.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line a lot.

Re: God I Hate Flat-Callers
 

I would just check and evaluate the turn here. If he pots it, just go ahead and raise him all-in (I don't think he has enough behind for us to try to just call and control the pot size... plus, I don't think he folds better hands here when CRed given his stack size).

In all honestly, you're probably going to the felt when you are beat here anyway, so I think I'm leaning toward a CR all-in to get draws to come along as well.

edit: Villain was deeper than I thought, but I still think we CR all-in against a PSB on the turn when we check.