The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Probably already discussed in some other thread but I couldn't find it.

At the end, it looked like there were more than 90 million chips. But 8773*10,000 = 87,730,000.

Can anybody explain the discrepancy?

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

On the PPV feed it was claimed to be from chipping up from race-offs.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Gold obviously found someway to steal them and add them to his stack. otherwise how would he have a chance to win

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

What was the last race-off they made? The 25k chips? and when did they made this one?

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Assuming the chipcounts were accurate, it seems quite obvious ENORMOUS cheating occurred at some point. Richard Brodie's blog goes into the "chip race" theory.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

at first i thought 4% of chips (phil gordon said this) was too much overall to be just in colorup difference. but if you figure like 10, maybe more, colorups its probably about right

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming the chipcounts were accurate, it seems quite obvious ENORMOUS cheating occurred at some point. Richard Brodie's blog goes into the "chip race" theory.

[/ QUOTE ]

expalin theory plz

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

It seems something got messed up between Day 6 and Day 7. The discrepancy went from ~500k to over 2m.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

what are the odds ESPN even had an accurate chip count? You have to have a pretty big job going on to get that many chips into the tournament.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

By this point (after day 6), they have a basically totally accurate chip count on everyone though, yes?

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Wasn't there a big screw up by Harrah's where they switched many Day1 C&D players to Day1 A without properly notifying them. Thus their entries were blinded out into the field on Day 1A.

The players screwed in this process were allowed to play on their orignally scheduled day; be it Day C or D and thus another buy-in of chips were entered into the tourney?

Or was that just a rumor I read earlier. That is defintely the end of select your own start day I believe as it caused a major mess.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
It seems something got messed up between Day 6 and Day 7. The discrepancy went from ~500k to over 2m.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going back thru the tournament reports that were done by Nolan Dalla and published at thehendonmob.com (which I hopefully added everything correctly):

End of Day 7: $90,140,000 End of Day 7 Chip Counts
End of Day 6 $88,246,000 End of Day 6 Chip Counts
End of Day 5 $87,775,000 End of Day 5 Chip Counts

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

richard brodie addressed this in his blog, if anyone has a link. He contends that it is very unlikely with all the racing off of chips, that an extra 3M was added. i thought it was very interesting that Gordon brushed over the discrepancy saying its only 5% of the chips in play. i couldnt tell if he was being serious, or throwing a dig in.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

if richard brodie's information about the timing of the color ups is correct, approximately 450 players would have had to have been blinded off day 1/2 and been allowed to play days 3/4 to make up the deficit.

(note: that's to get it to 88.25, up just over 500k. the final chip counts were even higher than this number.)

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

The maximum number of chips that can be added due to a color up is 2x(chip value)x(# of tables). I showed in my blog www.liontales.com that by the time they played down to 27 the very maximum theoretically possible in extra chips due to chip races was 50,900. (The likely total is far less than that.) The reported chip count was more than 500,000 over 87,730,000.

By the time it got down to the final table another 1.7 million chips had been added. The only color up that took place between 27 and 9 was the 5000 chips, which could only have added another 15,000. At the final table they may have raced off the 10,000 chips, which could add at most 20,000.

Gross negligence or cheating are the only explanations.

QL

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Two things:

One of the chip counts with three left totalled 89.x million, and the chip counts I saw on ESPN PPV after the first hand of heads up play until the end totalled 90.x million. Seems like a simple math error there.

Second, could there have been more than 8,773 entrants? Could Harrah's have either miscounted or misrepresented that number in an effort to hold back more money from the prize pool?

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
Could Harrah's have either miscounted or misrepresented that number in an effort to hold back more money from the prize pool?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know what a gambling license is worth? Not to mention negative publicity.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

My guess is a significant number of these chips came from the starting day fiasco. It doesn't seem too farfetched that there might be 50 extra stacks blinded off due to the mix-up. But if it's true that another 1.7M were added to the final table, that's scary.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

I'm confused as to how the maximum is 2x chip value. For example, if there's 1 extra $25 chip at a table, that would create $100-25=$75 for 3x chip value. The x would go up when the $100 and $1000 were raced off. Also, if the players themselves were writing down their chip values, and either added incorrectly or their writing was confused for something else is a possibility. On Day 1-B, Hossein Tagh Avi wrote $29,125, and it was noted as $229.125 in Nolan Dalla's report.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

You need at least half the value of the bigger chip to bring in an extra one.

QL

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

At least up to and including Day 3, there was no "independent" verification of chip counts; for obvious practical reasons. Meaning that if someone added their end of day chips incorrectly, it was reported incorrectly. Obviously this error would correct iteself as the number of players shrink so it could explain some of the error on the earlier days but not the ending chip count.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Someday, when it finally becomes cheap enough, all the chips will have tiny microchips in them. Then Cardplayer and the rest of the world will have accurate chip counts.

I know that some casinos already use these fancy chips at their table games.

They should also give every entrant a chip or smart card so that when they bust, they are scanned out and they can keep better track of what place everyone finishes in. This is similar to what they do in marathons to keep track of everyone's time.

Hey Quiet Lion....I hear you're a smart guy and wrote a little program for Microsoft that did pretty well. Can't you make this for the casinos and make a 2nd Billion dollars for yourself? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
You need at least half the value of the bigger chip to bring in an extra one.

QL

[/ QUOTE ]
No you dont. In a chip race all you need is 1 extra chip per table to bring in an extra chip. Example at a table of 10, 3 people have odd chips. One has 3, another has 3 and a last has 1. Regardless of who wins 2 chips will be added. if the 2 three chippers win, then only $25 of value are added to the tournament. If the 3 and the 1 win then $75 of value are added but regardless 1 extra chip is added.

Each table gets AT MOST 1 more chip per table, per color up. so a formula for approximating "maximum possible color up value added" is

#of tables @ the times of color up * value of the chip being colored up to + Previous Maximum colorup value added.

This formula is not exact, but give an approximate # of value added. Anything over the number from this formula is due to cheating.

The only way to determine the exact value added per color up level would be to get the rounding error at each table.

But it is important to undrestand that Chip races award 1 extra chip per level FOR ANY ODD CHIPS not just 50% of the value of the new chip so @ the 25-100, if there is 1 odd chip 1 @ a table an extra $100 chip is added. @ the 100-500 level if there is 1 odd chip an extra $500 chip is added... @ the 1000-5000 level if there is an extra 1000 chip an extra $5k chip is added....

Remember Players move so just getting an even distribution at the start is an in correct assumption because they way players break could cause tables to get extra chips that wouldnt other wise get them if everybody played together the whole way...

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gross negligence or cheating are the only explanations.

QL


[/ QUOTE ]


Id bet a little of both.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
No you dont. In a chip race all you need is 1 extra chip per table to bring in an extra chip.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe that is accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_race

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Man, this is confusing. I will say my initial reaction to Phil Gordon saying, "it only amounts to 4%" was "wow, 4% seems like a LOT." I hope some braniac posts a really good explanation of this -- it's interesting.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Did Men the Master play this tournamnet?

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

John Grooms regarding 2006 WSOP ME Chip Counts

John Grooms regarding 2005 WSOP ME Chip Counts

It seems that in a departure from last year, 200 dead stacks were blinded off.

BJ Nemeth also posted his thoughts on this Here, here, and here.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

If the difference was due to missing players, players who were blinded out and allowed a second day because of HET screw-ups, etc...the diffference would be in the ending Day 5 counts cited above. There is a small overage.

The main difference seems to have happened during Day 7 (see above). $2M.

Hard to sneak that many chips into the game.

But if they screwed up one of the color-ups, it is possible.
Like giving a stack $25K chips for every 4 stacks of $5K chips. TD has a brain lock and thinks it is 1 for 4 instead of 1 for 5.
Or somehow leaves a rack of $25K chips. $2.5M.
Everybody busy, not paying attention.

Cheating? Doubtful.
Screw-up? Probable.

Either way, HET/WSOP should address the problem instead of just waving their hands and saying "chip races".

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No you dont. In a chip race all you need is 1 extra chip per table to bring in an extra chip.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe that is accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_race

[/ QUOTE ]

Wiki Entry:
"In the event the remaining smaller chips do not add up to a whole larger chip, an extra larger chip should be added as long as the leftover smaller chips total more than half a single larger chip."

TDA rules state:
"When it is time to color-up chips, they will be raced off with a maximum of one chip going to any player. The chip race will always start in the No.1 seat. A player cannot be raced out of a tournament. In the event that a player has only one chip left, the regular race procedure will take place. If that player loses the race, he will be given one chip of the smallest denomination still in play."

There is no mention in the TDA rules about a 50% barrier being required and all the casino's that I've played in have rounded up. I'm kind of a chip race whore (I love chip races) and watch them all the time. Its easier for the TD's and dealers to just add the chip than to try and hold some 50% barrier and then try to explain this to a player who feels he missed out. Where is Johnny Groom when we need him.....

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Here is a possible benign explanation for the extra chips:

I think the published chip counts are based on the amounts that the players count and write on their name/seating/chip count cards and seal with their chips in plastic bags. Those amounts aren't verified by anybody and I've heard off and on in recent years that some players purposely overstate their chip counts for various reasons (such as liking to appear higher in the chip count listings). Even so, the large jump late in the ME is eye-catching.

Bob Feduniak

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Ok guys,
I will try to explain this as well as I can.

Players started with 5 denominations of chips in the event.
$25
$100
$500
$1000

When racing off chips, each player will divide their lowest denom. chips in to stacks that represent 1 chip of the next highest denom. ( 4 green($25) chips= 1 black($100) chip).

The left over chips for each person are stacked in front of them, and the dealer gives the players one card face up for every chip.

Ex.- a player has 13 green chips. He divides his chips into 3 stacks of 100, and has one chip left over. The dealer gives him 1 card face up for that chip. Each player at the table repeats this process.

In this example, lets say there are 14 odd chips left over with the 10 players a the table. The 3 players with the highest card up will recieve 1 chip. that accounts for 12 of the chips. In this instance, anoher chip would be awarded, because the 2 other chips represent 1/2 or more of a higher denom chip.

In this manner, it is possible(but extremely unlikely ) that every table remaining when the green chips were raced off gained an extra chip. Let's say that 360 tables were left(beginning of day 2). That would be 360 tables x $50 gained(replacing 2 $25 chips with one $100 chip).

That would be a net gain of chips in play of 360x$50=18,000

try again with the 100's.

If there were, maybe 200 tables left again, and all(impossible) of them were to gain a chip, Thats at a minimum $200x200= $40,000

Repeat the process with 1000's 100 tables=50,000
5000's= 10 tables- 50,000
10000's- 2 tables- 40,000
50000's- i table- 50,000

add up these figures. It's absolutely imossible that the 200 players worth of chips were introduced during a race off. The dead stacks on day were were fully blinded off into the tournament. Or a huge mistake was made on a color up. I will answer any and all questions on this topic tomorrow, as I am leaving for a mini vacation in 10 min.

Thanks
JG
100000's

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

[ QUOTE ]
richard brodie addressed this in his blog, if anyone has a link. He contends that it is very unlikely with all the racing off of chips, that an extra 3M was added. i thought it was very interesting that Gordon brushed over the discrepancy saying its only 5% of the chips in play. i couldnt tell if he was being serious, or throwing a dig in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not very unlikely because I watched a total of 1 table colour up and the dealer was about to give 1 player double what his chips are worth, If I seen this watching 20 seconds of one colour up I'm pretty sure this did happen more than a few times
EXTRA 3 MILL= DEALERS NOT KNOWING HOW TO ADD

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

John Grooms - so does this mean you suspect that extra chips were somehow smuggled into the stacks somehow?
Making THAT many color-up errors seems unlikely.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

OK, let's say it was a conspiracy.

Did 100 people smuggle in 20,000 extra chips each?
Did 10 people smuggle in 200,000 extra chips each?
Did 1 person smuggle in 2M extra chips?

Does any of this sound totally ridiculous? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Well, something happened because there were quite a few extra chips out there by the end. So how the hell did it happen?

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Everyone who subscribes to conspiracy theories knows the first place you look is to the person/persons who gained from it all. Ask yourself who had a lot of chips? Who ended up with all the chips? Why did he keep leaving his table to talk to Chan? Was he seen shuffling chips in his hand every time he returned to the table? Did his stack seem to keep growing even though he was telling everyone what his cards were? The truth is out there.

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/581...cecreamkl1.gif

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

Looks like the floor could be a bit casual with the chips as well. Thread

Re: The \"Ghost\" extra chips in the WSOP ME
 

If it was a floor/dealer mistake, is it a player's responsibility to tell that he got extra chips?