double check standard??
 

PLO 1/2 party

4 limpers, i limp with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], button limps, blinds call

flop ($16) (8 players): T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

check, check, check, MP (200) bets $16, LP (200) raises pot, Hero (200) ???

push, or call? or is this a fold?? wtf

Re: double check standard??
 

Push and pray

Re: double check standard??
 

What does pushing accomplish other than getting all in vs TT

Also you are crushed by something like JT97

when the guy makes it $64 on the flop, he's going to call most of the time, the other player in the hand took the most aggressive action possible in a multi way pot with players behind him to act

if you have no fold equity this is probably pretty close to EV neutral

Re: double check standard??
 

[ QUOTE ]
What does pushing accomplish other than getting all in vs TT

[/ QUOTE ]

Which would be ok.

pokenum -o qs js 9s 7h - td th 5h 5c -- ts 8c 4d
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ts 8c 4d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Js 9s 7h 416 50.73 404 49.27 0 0.00 0.507
5c Td Th 5h 404 49.27 416 50.73 0 0.00 0.493

Especially if foe #2 has 88xx.

pokenum -o qs js 9s 7h - td th 5h 5c - 8d 8h 3h 3c -- ts 8c 4d
Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing Ts 8c 4d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Js 9s 7h 384 57.66 282 42.34 0 0.00 0.577
5c Td Th 5h 247 37.09 419 62.91 0 0.00 0.371
3c 8d 8h 3h 35 5.26 631 94.74 0 0.00 0.053

Although foe #2 may have a draw instead, which is less ok.

pokenum -o qs js 9s 7h - td th 5h 5c - jc 9d 8d 7d -- ts 8c 4d
Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing Ts 8c 4d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Js 9s 7h 130 19.52 359 53.90 177 26.58 0.328
5c Td Th 5h 329 49.40 337 50.60 0 0.00 0.494
Jc 9d 8d 7d 30 4.50 459 68.92 177 26.58 0.178

Re: double check standard??
 

The guy with TT and/or 88 is likely to have your straight outs strangled worse than that. Something like JTT7 is a lot more likely that TT55.

Re: double check standard??
 

with the $ in the pot folding is a mistake.

Enjoy the variance.

It's an unraised pot--those two tens can be accompanied by literally any two cards and you should treat that as such.

JT79? The odds of this are so freaking unlikely I'm not worried at all about that. If you're constantly worrying about hands like that you are missing some value in your game.

Re: double check standard??
 

Fair point, I shouldn't pick such trash side cards. Here's one that makes foes' hands much more attractive pre-flop and gobbles up tons of hero's outs.

pokenum -o qs js 9s 7h - jh td tc 9h - 8h 8d 7c 6c -- ts 8c 4d
Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing Ts 8c 4d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Js 9s 7h 184 27.63 362 54.35 120 18.02 0.366
Tc Td Jh 9h 243 36.49 303 45.50 120 18.02 0.455
7c 6c 8d 8h 119 17.87 547 82.13 0 0.00 0.179

Much less rosy but still +EV 3-way.

Re: double check standard??
 

Why is this +EV 3-ways - or am I missing something?
Win: 27.63%

Re: double check standard??
 

Humor me for a second and assume he has something like TT76. It cannot possibly be unreasonable to assume that sort of holding is an "average top set" for him to have. Giving him TT55 is much too optimistic.

Assuming it goes, fold and then you get all in vs LP (by far the most likely scenario), you are -EV to get all in there even with the dead money in the middle.

Re: double check standard??
 

Parlay Slow, I conceded that TT55 is towards the low end of TTxx holdings and substituted a powerful JTT9 hand (better than TT76 as well) in the simulation above. Hero still has 36.6% EV 3-way.

youdidwhat, note that hero also ties 18.02% of the time.

Re: double check standard??
 

yves,

The simple answer is that concerning big straight draws, you should be glad to play same headsup against a set even if he likely has couple of your outs (I said big draw and not just oesd), but should be wary of playing same with a 3rd wheel who is likely splitting.

Re: double check standard??
 

calling has merits as well, although none of your outs are really disguised so if the turn hits you, it may be tough to get paid.

Re: double check standard??
 

oops

Re: double check standard??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Parlay Slow, I conceded that TT55 is towards the low end of TTxx holdings and substituted a powerful JTT9 hand (better than TT76 as well) in the simulation above. Hero still has 36.6% EV 3-way.

youdidwhat, note that hero also ties 18.02% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

hero may have 36.6% equity 3-way but getting heads up vs top set is FAR more likely -- in this scenario you are -EV

Re: double check standard??
 

I would call

The way I see it, the main reason to raise here is because it will be very difficult for anyone to call the raise with any made hand other than trip tens. If either player has trip eights they may well fold in this spot,(especially the guy in middle position, he has two guys who could have trip tens). For this reason you could win the pot there and then.
(By itself,I don't think the fact that u might have a slight edge over trip tens justifies a raise.)

However, there is a good chance your up against trip tens here or a strong drawing hand and you will get a call. The worst case scenario is the original bettor, MP, has trip tens he calls your re-raise, and then LP has a drawing hand similar to yours and calls for value.

I think calling, (with the intention of calling a push from MP)is the best play because

a) you can get away from it if the turn pairs.

b) MP is unlikely to come over the top here with a drawing hand, so there is less chance you'll get your money in drawing to half the pot.

c) you make it easier for MP to call with a weak made hand.

If I folded this hand, even by accident, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

Re: double check standard??
 

check

if it goes heads up:
 

You are between 43% and 48%. Most likely around 42%, which is clearly -ev given the dead money. More to the point, you can avoid most of this by calling and folding if the turn pairs.

xorbie mentioned you might have trouble getting paid off when you hit your st8, but I do ALL THE TIME.

Imagine you are him playing your TT. Can't fold to every jackoff who MIGHT have hit a st8. Especially if he is so lag.

Seems a clear check/call.


pokenum -o tc td qh ac - qs js 9s 7h -- ts 8c 4d
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ts 8c 4d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Tc Td Qh 465 56.71 347 42.32 8 0.98 0.572
Qs Js 9s 7h 347 42.32 465 56.71 8 0.98 0.428

Re: if it goes heads up:
 

calling def looks better

you see all 5 cards correctly as long as the turn doesn't pair the board and also gives the 3rd guy a way better chance to get in there w/ 88

two more calcs
 

Sorry, some how these got deleted from the origional reply.

pokenum -o tc td qh ac - qs js 9s 7h -- ts 8c 4d
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ts 8c 4d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Tc Td Qh 465 56.71 347 42.32 8 0.98 0.572
Qs Js 9s 7h 347 42.32 465 56.71 8 0.98 0.428

pokenum -o tc td 9h 7s - qs js 9s 7h -- ts 8c 4d
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ts 8c 4d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7s Tc Td 9h 438 53.41 298 36.34 84 10.24 0.585
Qs Js 9s 7h 298 36.34 438 53.41 84 10.24 0.415

pokenum -o tc td 2h 3c - qs js 9s 7h -- ts 8c 4d
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ts 8c 4d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Tc 3c Td 2h 435 53.05 385 46.95 0 0.00 0.530
Qs Js 9s 7h 385 46.95 435 53.05 0 0.00 0.470

Re: two more calcs
 

anyways i pushed he had TT87 and he held in case anyone cares

Re: two more calcs
 

Uh, it wasn't our money, so why should we care [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].


(You have realized haven't you, as AZK did quickly from reading this forum and commented on same in so many words, that we are a bunch of dicks?)

Re: two more calcs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, it wasn't our money, so why should we care [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].


(You have realized haven't you, as AZK did quickly from reading this forum and commented on same in so many words, that we are a bunch of dicks?)

[/ QUOTE ]

you realize youre trying to explain being a dick to yvesaint

Re: two more calcs
 

my bad he had TT67 (he had a straight draw too and he did not have the 8 for more boat outs)