Dealing with Maniacs
 

My friends and I have played in a weekly home game for the last couple of years. It has been a gold mine for me. J I simply play a VERY conservative game and only bet when I have a hand. You would think they would figure it out but they don’t and I keep taking their money.

Anyway, about a month ago we had two new players who have started playing with us on a regular basis. They are both older men (late 60’s) who play A LOT of free bar tournaments. They chase almost anything…A flush, straight and two over cards to the flop regardless of the bets. They also raise frequently per-flop between 7 and 14 times the BB. These hands almost never get showed down because they keep the pressure on with these large bets all the way to the river. However, I did see one of these hands this week and it was a QT off suit in middle position.

I have a problem dealing with these guys and they have cut into my weekly profits. They don’t mind buying in time and time again but I do, which causes my tight play. So how do I play these guys? I’m sure they are bullying some pots but no one is as lucky as they represent.

Any and ALL suggestions will be appreciated.
Phil

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

Learn how to be a poker play and not a card peddler.

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

Trap them with monsters.

Figure out if there's a "blocking bet" you can use against them.

Play position on them.

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

Basically anyone who bets 8 to 16 times the pot is not very good at poker. i would not really recommend trying to "play poker" against them. really you only need to win a few big pots a night.

Your major adjustment needs to be to lower your starting hand requirements though. Top pair no kicker gotta probably call to the end. Call down with middle pair maybe depending on how they play. Play back at them preflop with Ax KJ all pocket pairs if the stacks are shallow.

Bottom line is anyone who bets 8 - 16 times the BB is very explotiable.

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

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Your major adjustment needs to be to lower your starting hand requirements though.

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You think the best way to exploit huge preflop raisers is to loosen up? By them raising so much preflop can't you just wait for only super good hands preflop and play those hard for big pots?

****The following is a Novel but I have experience with this. If you don't care then don't read***

I am in the 100% same situation as the OP. I used to play with friends and we played a tame game where I just beat them by playing solid poker. I had better reads than them, played better cards, and knew where to draw the line better as far as odds and drawing hands. We have always played with 25 and 50 cents blinds and a big night used to be $20 to the good or the bad because no one was loose or wild.

Then a few months ago these new guys started playing and they are maniacs, but thinking maniacs, and they just ran everyone over or got people to gamble in really marginal spots. Now a big night is a few hundred, yes still .25/.50 blinds. A standard preflop raise is $5 or more and if TP meets a draw the pot could swell to 100+BBs easily. My results have since been extremely erratic and its an ongoing thing I've been experimenting with and I still haven't completely figured it out.


I've tried fighting back often (aggression vs aggression)but it doesn't work so well because they will ALWAYS pressure me back post flop and I'm not nearly as willing to run huge bluffs with nothing or call off my chips with weak hands so a lot of the time I was creating a big pot that they were still more likely to win when we both missed.

I've tried just playing super tight but it was a little transparent and they were sometimes able to fold correctly against me when I was strong.

I've tried playing back at them with sheer bluffs but they are so willing to "gamble" that the risk was almost never worth the reward in my experience. They are too prone to call with inadequate holdings and often times multiple barrels or huge overbets are neededd to induce them to fold.

Ultimately I'm not sure that there is a foolproof system to beating maniacs who have some knowledge of how to play and are thinking players. You can/will beat them in the longrun by just playing solid poker but the variance is inevitable and I'll never be able to consistently win a medium amount just about every night like I used to when it was all milk-toast competition. Steady wins are just not going to happen vs maniacs. You've gotta be willing to get it in and rake huge pots as well as lose your stack. Its a rollercoaster.

I mix it up now with a LOT of strong value betting and pushing percieved edges, especially post flop and on the flop. I'll also trap with monsters on the rare occassions the pot is small on the flop and they are leading the betting. I very rarely bluff but when I do its usually EARLY in the night. This is the time when people will fold a lot more readily. Towards the end of the night I'll often start to tighten up preflop and try to catch one of them gambling with a small PP or 2 face cards against my, JJ-AA/AK and try to get as much in the middle preflop as possible.

Its all balance and changing gears but the most important thing IMO is ALWAYS HAVE THEM COVERED! I know you may not want to buy in for 10 times the amount you're used to risking but you absolutely have to be able to hammer these guys when you catch a big hand. Also, as you know, their stacks are constantly growing whether they are winning or losing since they always buy back in for a lot and the money stays on the table. If you can find one favorable spot a night where you can double up on somebody for hundreds of BBs it will set you for the night. Just make sure you have a ton of chips at all times. Its hard to not go broke when you start with $10 and play for 4 hours against guys who will go all-in with a ton of hands and buy in for $50. Buy-in big and dont be afraid to risk it when you are fairly sure you have the best of it.

If in serious doubt stay out of the hand early or specualte cheap. Don't get into situations where you're calling off your stack because you might have the best hand. When you get it in be confident you're best. The constantly huge pots they create in relation to the blinds allow you to be selective. There is no rush and throwing away a few bluff catchers wont kill you. Calling all-in drawing dead will.

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

go to war with 3 and 4 betting pre flop

fight fire with fire

don't back down

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

I didnt read the other posts.

Just play a bit tighter but when u get a hand you are going to play, reraise it preflop vs them and keep the pressure up. Ifg they play like total lagtards, limp reraise alot.

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

put them to a decision for all of their chips

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

Play your solid cards that you have been playing. When you hit the flop just call, let them bet. If on the turn, you think they are on a draw and it hasn't come, bet big enough so that they can't profitably call. Otherwise just call them down with decent hands. I think of these as 'value calls'.

They make money by making other players fold. But if you call them with good hands you will make money. Don't forget about the other players at the table as they may be trying to trap the maniac and catch you too!

Of course your winnings will now have more flucuation then it did before. That's just the nature of adding a maniac to the game.

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

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I've tried just playing super tight but it was a little transparent and they were sometimes able to fold correctly against me when I was strong.

I've tried playing back at them with sheer bluffs but they are so willing to "gamble" that the risk was almost never worth the reward in my experience. They are too prone to call with inadequate holdings and often times multiple barrels or huge overbets are neededd to induce them to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

The only way to reconcile these statements is if they always know what cards you have.

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

I think you should tighten up, because you can afford to wait for good hands. The hands that you decide to play, you can play just as aggressively as they do. You probably won't need to bluff very often.

It is probably also useful, as someone earlier suggested, to play the maniacs from position. That's why I think you might consider having one or both of these maniacs close to your right.

Have fun!

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

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put them to a decision for all of their chips

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Exactly.

Even the most LAG players will shrink to that.

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

you miss the point of loosening up.
its not loosening up to try to play back at them.
its loosening up because qj is better than their starting range (or KQ etc).
there is really only one way to play against people who overbet the pot and that is to just slow play and trap them. however, you are able to slowplay and trap with more hands than you think.
buttom line is these guys suck really bad at poker. you could just be losing due to higher variance.

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

If you can't beat the bad players, how are you going to beat the good ones?

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

You are an idiot

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

You really havent given specific enough information about their playing styles for me to give you any real advice.

I would suggest trying to get behind them at the table, so when you do play hands against them you have position.

I would also suggest you try, as best as you can, to remain friendly to them, even though you are bothered by their style and presence in your otherwise profitable game.

I say this because you say they are buying in multiple times, so I figure them to be profitable opponents.

Older players are not so strict about what cards they play pre-flop, but are better at reading hands than you probably are. Be careful about 'telegraphing' your hands. You may find yourself in a position where you are only getting called when you are beat, and are making a lot of calls with 2nd best hands in attempts to generate your own action.

Also, when you hold a big pair and one of them is in the pot, try not to jump out of your seat when you know you have them crushed. Just remain calm and try to pretend you have something else like 77. Get heads up if necessary, but dont pull the trigger too fast, unless the pot has grown to the point of no return. Remember bluffers usually have nothing, and if you tell them you have something, they have to fold, and you lose money you make when they keep firing at the pot.

Be sociable with them. Old guys can get tempermental if they arent drinking alcohol and socializing nicely helps keep them calm and relaxed and will keep them in the game longer.

-J

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

Recently at my home game our resident maniac got short-stacked (with his fourth or so stack of the evening) and started pushing for 8BB or so preflop. I called him once with QJs, he had 8-8 & won. I called him another time with AK, he had Q-9 & hit a Q. Eventually he got a playable stack and started making his big move on the flop instead of pre-flop. He took down a few pots that way. I was in some of those pots, but was not prepared to call any of those overbets without the goods.

Eventually I was able to limp in to a hand with A-2, and the flop came J-2-2. I had position, maniac made a smallish 1/3-pot bet, one other caller, and I figured if I raised then he might get away from his hand, so I just called. On the turn 8 he overbet the pot, and I knew I had him. I raised, he pushed with J-7, I stacked him.

They'll give you their money if you are patient enough, and are prepared to play some post-flop poker.

Re: Dealing with Maniacs
 

The key is patience and you can trap them eventually.