It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

I open with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG 5 handed, some 27/10 calls in the BB.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He bets, I call.

Turn: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

He bets, I call.

River: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

He bets, I fold.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

When im in this situation, I usually call all streets. If you had some kind of special read, then your river fold could be right. With no read, this is a auto-call for me.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

I like.

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i'd call the river

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I don't think this is a spot for an expert laydown on the river.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

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I don't think this is a spot for an expert laydown on the river.

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nate,

how many 27/10 types are going to 3 barrell you there w/out a heart? obv you think enough, but i don't know....

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

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I don't think this is a spot for an expert laydown on the river.

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nate,

how many 27/10 types are going to 3 barrell you there w/out a heart? obv you think enough, but i don't know....

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In some ways, I think there's more of an argument for folding against a TAG, because they tend to better understand the dynamics between turn and river play.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

I think the fact that you under represented your hand on the flop, making it look MORE like a heart and less like a solid pair makes the turn a fold.,

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i'd call the river

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Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

I like this. You play like me. That's sort of bad news for you but I'm glad I'm not the only one [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

I call, but I showdown too much.

Having said that, it's kind of a crazy flop to donk with only a draw, since the flop probably hit you nicely. If he flopped a flush he could donk it.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

this is why you raise the flop

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

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this is why you raise the flop

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I don't really see how that puts us in a better situation.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

makes it a much easier decision if he bets into you twice after you had the initiative

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People (including me) donk at the flush all the time.

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this is why you raise the flop

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Raising this flop in this HU pot = I dont know how to play poker.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

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this is why you raise the flop

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Raising this flop in this HU pot = I dont know how to play poker.

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I obviously suck then but why Mr Expert?

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

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this is why you raise the flop

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Raising this flop in this HU pot = I dont know how to play poker.

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I obviously suck then but why Mr Expert?

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If this guy is betting a heart draw, we want him betting the turn, raising the flop stops this process. If the villain somehow has a better hand than us, raising the flop is also obviously a bad idea. If the villain somehow has nothing, raising the flop stops him from bluffing. If a heart hits the turn the hero will also be glad he didnt raise the flop.

The point here is, If you absolutely feel compelled to raise, the time to do it would be on the turn. Atleast at this point you can charge all draws/lesser hands the maximum when the turn blanks off.

But IMO, I wouldnt even raise turn blank either, I think the best way to play this hand is to just call down. If the villain has nothing or a draw he may bluff the whole way, if the villian has a better hand or improves to a better hand, the hero will minimize his loss. I would only raise a turn blank if I were positive this guy would not bluff the river nor would he 3bet the turn with a lesser hand either.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

You make no sense if he has a heart draw why do we care if he bets or calls?

If he has a better hand why is raising the flop bad? you'd rather wait for the turn and get 3bet before deciding to call down a non-heart?

I'm sure the guy is just going to keep betting into you with a weak heart draw and nothing else, most likely he has something like QhJx or JxTh and is 50/50 vs you, he isnt a loose moron based on his stats so I doubt he is betting air.

Not raising at all is just plain weak, you pretty much just let him have a free shot at the pot. Its not like you'll always have a hand here, I assume you'd be folding when you have something like a small PP with no heart.

Raising the flop gives you cheap information in a pot you probably arent a huge favourite to win. If there were extra players then waiting for the turn is a much better play because you are more likely dead to any heart.
Here however it is HU you raised UTG so unless he has the Ah he probably isnt going to bet into you twice after you raised the flop to show that you have some kind of a hand (of course plenty of LAG idiots do but probably not this guy).

This means he will likely check to you on the turn or the river, by not raising he knows you dont have a high heart because why wouldn't you raise the flop? without showing any strength on the flop he will probably assume that you dont have much so he will more likely throw out an extra bet with a weak hand causing you to fold the best hand on the river sometimes.

Also I dont like raising a non heart turn HU because he may 3bet semi bluff with a high heart and the pot is too small to warrant a calldown after that.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

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You make no sense if he has a heart draw why do we care if he bets or calls?

If he has a better hand why is raising the flop bad? you'd rather wait for the turn and get 3bet before deciding to call down a non-heart?

I'm sure the guy is just going to keep betting into you with a weak heart draw and nothing else, most likely he has something like QhJx or JxTh and is 50/50 vs you, he isnt a loose moron based on his stats so I doubt he is betting air.

Not raising at all is just plain weak, you pretty much just let him have a free shot at the pot. Its not like you'll always have a hand here, I assume you'd be folding when you have something like a small PP with no heart.

Raising the flop gives you cheap information in a pot you probably arent a huge favourite to win. If there were extra players then waiting for the turn is a much better play because you are more likely dead to any heart.
Here however it is HU you raised UTG so unless he has the Ah he probably isnt going to bet into you twice after you raised the flop to show that you have some kind of a hand (of course plenty of LAG idiots do but probably not this guy).

This means he will likely check to you on the turn or the river, by not raising he knows you dont have a high heart because why wouldn't you raise the flop? without showing any strength on the flop he will probably assume that you dont have much so he will more likely throw out an extra bet with a weak hand causing you to fold the best hand on the river sometimes.

Also I dont like raising a non heart turn HU because he may 3bet semi bluff with a high heart and the pot is too small to warrant a calldown after that.

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If this guy is on a heart draw, we want him to stay in control of this hand, he may bluff all the way, and if he hits we minimize our loss.

If he has a better hand raising the flop becomes a costly play. This is just common sense. I dont think I need to elaborate on this one.

"Not raising at all is just weak" This is a silly amature statement that I only see beginning pseudo tags make. I dont know how experienced you are at this game helpmeout, but this philosophy of "I have the best hand therefore I raise" does not cut it once you get past 2-4. Holdem is not about raising when you think you have the best hand, holdem is about making money. And one of the true indications of expert play is when you can recognize situations where a passive line with the likely best hand will make/save you the most money in the long run. This is one of those spots Helpmeout. If you dont understand how that is so, then you should think about this hand some more until you figure it out.

"Raising the flop for cheap information" All we have on this guy is a stat read, we know nothing else about his game or state of mind. This means that raising for information goes right out the window. The information we gain will not be reliable enough to utilize therefore the strategy of raising for the sole purpose of "finding where were at" is rendered useless. Raising for information is a strategy that should only be done against an opponent you know extremely well.

About your last statement "by not raising he knows you dont have a heart because why wouldnt you raise the flop" If we just call the flop our opponent will have no idea what we have, which is a good thing.

"Without showing strength on the flop he will probably assume that you dont have much so he will more likely throw out an extra bet with a weak hand" This is also a good thing! And who said anything about folding the river? Bryce made a mistake by folding the river, that doesnt mean he didnt play well the previous streets.

Helpmeout, I have actually done several essays on handling flop donks in HU pots, and honestly I am too lazy to discuss this situation further. If you want to learn more about how to handle flop donks in these kind of situations, I'll give you some references.

"Holdem Poker for Advanced Players" pg. 147
"Poker Essays 3" pg. 51 and pg. 181

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

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Raising this flop in this HU pot = I dont know how to play poker.

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Raising the flop here isn't so so bad, it's not like it's one of those 854 monotone boards where we have MP or something and are either around even or way behind the times villan puts more money in the pot. On this flop we're pretty much always ahead, and villain may put some extra action in with a worse hand if we raise. In fact, raising the flop will often be correct. Just depends on what villain will do with what.

Anyways, helpmeout, I know that ilovepoker basically called you an idiot, and that's not cool, but your response basically has a fundamental misunderstanding in every paragraph. Traditionally I've never really been a big fan of your posts (I mean this in the most kosher way). It looks like you're playing NL these days, but if you do come back to limit again and your BR has a few K to spare it would just be my personal suggestion that you find a really good coach who can communicate well and discuss poker for a few hours.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

ILP,

You and I agree with each other 98% of the time, but we have this running debate on handling donkbets...

I do think you want to raise somewhere along the line here, because a *lot* of his hands consist of weaker made hands like K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], that will call bets on all streets including the river.

Raising a non-flush turn is certainly the default play. But, raising the flop can be fine if your opponent plays fast and is likely to 3-bet you light. You can then decide between various lines (capping the flop, calling and raising the turn, or calling down) depending on just how fast he plays.

Waiting and raising the river is also a viable option.

I would only "just" call down if the donkbet felt very out of character and his range was weighted heavily toward bluffs and very strong hands.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

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ILP,

You and I agree with each other 98% of the time, but we have this running debate on handling donkbets...

I do think you want to raise somewhere along the line here, because a *lot* of his hands consist of weaker made hands like K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], that will call bets on all streets including the river.

Raising a non-flush turn is certainly the default play. But, raising the flop can be fine if your opponent plays fast and is likely to 3-bet you light. You can then decide between various lines (capping the flop, calling and raising the turn, or calling down) depending on just how fast he plays.

Waiting and raising the river is also a viable option.

I would only "just" call down if the donkbet felt very out of character and his range was weighted heavily toward bluffs and very strong hands.

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Nate, if the villain is the type of player who will 3bet this flop with a lot of lesser hands, then I agree with you 100% that raising the flop is the unequivocal best play. I would start the party right away every time in this situation. My stratey of handling donkbets is geared toward the typcial/normal/logical opponent. Basically, when I flop a hand like top pair in a HU pot and my opponent donks into me, I usually take one of two lines: I either call down and raise the river, or I just call down.

By playing my hand in this unorthodox way I gain maximum value all those times my opponent bets a weak hand/bluff all the way that wouldve folded early to pressure. I also minimize my loss if my opponent happens to have the best hand. And if my opponent improves to a better hand on the turn or river, I can never get checkraised since Im never in control of the hand, plus now that hes doing the betting I can still raise every time I improve. So by playing passive, I induce him to bluff all the way, I lower his implied odds when hes losing and I increase my implied odds when im losing, and I minimize my loss when im somehow behind and I still preserve my right to raise the river unimproved. This strategy also balances out very well with my marginal pairs/A-high call down plays thus keeping my opponents off balance. I believe that all these advantages of this strategy are greater than the 1 small bet the hero makes by raising the flop.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

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Anyways, helpmeout, I know that ilovepoker basically called you an idiot, and that's not cool.

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I realize that my words may come off as a bit abrasive and thats my own fault, but I dont think helpmeout is an idiot. I dont even know him but If I had to guess I would assume he's a winning player.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

We are ahead here less often than 1 time out of five. Nh.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

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ILP,

You and I agree with each other 98% of the time, but we have this running debate on handling donkbets...

I do think you want to raise somewhere along the line here, because a *lot* of his hands consist of weaker made hands like K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], that will call bets on all streets including the river.

Raising a non-flush turn is certainly the default play. But, raising the flop can be fine if your opponent plays fast and is likely to 3-bet you light. You can then decide between various lines (capping the flop, calling and raising the turn, or calling down) depending on just how fast he plays.

Waiting and raising the river is also a viable option.

I would only "just" call down if the donkbet felt very out of character and his range was weighted heavily toward bluffs and very strong hands.

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Nate, if the villain is the type of player who will 3bet this flop with a lot of lesser hands, then I agree with you 100% that raising the flop is the unequivocal best play. I would start the party right away every time in this situation. My stratey of handling donkbets is geared toward the typcial/normal/logical opponent. Basically, when I flop a hand like top pair in a HU pot and my opponent donks into me, I usually take one of two lines: I either call down and raise the river, or I just call down.

By playing my hand in this unorthodox way I gain maximum value all those times my opponent bets a weak hand/bluff all the way that wouldve folded early to pressure. I also minimize my loss if my opponent happens to have the best hand. And if my opponent improves to a better hand on the turn or river, I can never get checkraised since Im never in control of the hand, plus now that hes doing the betting I can still raise every time I improve. So by playing passive, I induce him to bluff all the way, I lower his implied odds when hes losing and I increase my implied odds when im losing, and I minimize my loss when im somehow behind and I still preserve my right to raise the river unimproved. This strategy also balances out very well with my marginal pairs/A-high call down plays thus keeping my opponents off balance. I believe that all these advantages of this strategy are greater than the 1 small bet the hero makes by raising the flop.

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I'm not sure how much of this isn't the different meanings of donkbets at different limits. My experience as I've moved up is that donkbets become more common, and begin to represent a more robust hand range that really isn't all that different than a typical check-raising range.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

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I'm not sure how much of this isn't the different meanings of donkbets at different limits. My experience as I've moved up is that donkbets become more common, and begin to represent a more robust hand range that really isn't all that different than a typical check-raising range.

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I agree with this.

I also agree that on this particular board he's going to have a wide range of hands that are willing to call down a raise at some point, a board like K42 fits in much better with ILPs comments.

Surf

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

Unless this villian is really stringent with 3bets raising the flop doesnt really give u any info for the hand. I mean all we have are stats so he may 3bet light or he may not, but if I got 3bet on this flop is does not tell me a whole lot of where I stand except Im against a pair, a draw, a pair+draw...I mean it tells me Im not against nothing, but that Im against something. And that something is pretty wide open.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

Villain's flop donk instead of checkraising is what I call fold-seeking behavior. Usually that means he has a big heart or a made hand, but not both, because he is afraid of something or other.

Flop call is easy. People bet this flop because they hope you will fold or raise. They never want you to just call because in that case they would have achieved the same result without risk by checkcalling your autobet. So spoil their plan and leave them in the dark by autocalling. Now they have to guess what to do on the turn. This time you want them to bet a blank so you can (usually) raise, but next hand you might want the free card. Either way the pressure is on them not to make a huge mistake and the strategy of donking the flop is completely nullified. When the actual fourth heart comes your call also pays off because you can play one bet per street instead of guessing whether you are supposed to bet the turn and maybe get checkraised.

Once the fourth heart turns you lose to a heart but you still beat many of the made hands without hearts. He may feel obligated to continue with these hands because he's stuck OOP with the initiative. So call him down and hope for the best.

The river is poor because it makes so many new hands (three straights, a set, and several obvious two pair). So I guess you could fold. Or not. I don't think it matter much at 6-1.

Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
 

Nice post SW.

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By playing my hand in this unorthodox way I gain maximum value all those times my opponent bets a weak hand/bluff all the way that wouldve folded early to pressure. I also minimize my loss if my opponent happens to have the best hand.

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I think calling the flop is not that bad an option sometimes against a donk bet, but I disagree that it minimizes your loss when your opponent is ahead, especially if that opponent is passive. Raising the flop allows us to check behind the turn or river when there is a really scary board. This is extremely valuable in many hands. For this reason, I don't understand how calling the flop minimizes our losses when we are behind.

The value we gain when our opponent is betting a weak draw is definitely the strongest part of your argument for calling a donk on the flop. I think the point about minimizing our loss when behind is quite weak.

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Raising the flop allows us to check behind the turn or river when there is a really scary board. This is extremely valuable in many hands.

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General rule: It is rarely correct to seize the initiative when you probably won't know what to do next.

The free card raise with a made hand tends to result in getting the free card when you have the best hand while giving extra action when you are behind [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. If you raise the flop it must be because you want to bet the turn too.

This hand is a classic example of information disadvantage. WA/WB is a form of information disadvantage but the information disadvantage concept covers much more than that. Suppose that on the turn you and your opponent each secretly told the dealer who you think has the best hand. Who is more likely to be right?

You basically have no idea. TPTK versus the four-flush is anyone's guess. OTOH your opponent is very likely to give the correct answer. If he has the flush he will choose himself and be right. If he has a straight draw or small pair he will choose you and once again he's right.

Don't allow your opponent to make decisions in this situation because you won't like the results. If he bets then you call. If he checks then you bet. One bet per street and your opponent's superior knowledge has no influence in the matter thanks to your positional advantage.