Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

Prologue
I admit it. When it comes to show one, show all (SOSA), I'm a nit. Maybe it's because I keep flashing back to high school and thinking all the cool kids on the other end of the table are leaving me out of their clique. Or perhaps it's because it drives me crazy that, by trying to hide their hand from me but not from others, my opponents are affirming the value of information but also claiming the right to selectively distribute it. Regardless, I keep getting myself in situatinos where I stupidly make a big deal about SOSA, when the value of the information (though real) is tiny compared to the negative value of putting the whole table on edge and marking myself as a nit.

The drama
This situation from the Borgata $2-5 NL yesterday is a good example. (As usual, the irrelevant details may be slightly fuzzy.) I picked up AA in late middle position in the 10 seat with a stack of about $300. Seat 7 raised UTG + 2 to about $25. I reraised to $75, the BB called, and Seat 7 thought for a while, showed his neighbors, and folded. I asked the dealer to set aside his cards so I could see at the end of the hand, which she did.

The flop was two-suited so I bet $100 or so and took down the pot. Seat 8 now asks me to show my hand. Possibly out of pique I promptly shove them into the muck, which of course is my privilege since I hadn't shown anybody anything. At that point all hell breaks loose.

Seat 7 reaches over to his mucked cards, which the dealer had been protecting (obviously not very well!), and tries to wash them into the muck. Because she was holding them to her left, he had to reach all the way across the board to do this. Pissed off, I react impulsively and reach in to stop him and flip up four or five cards including his hand, which I made out to be AQ. The floor is standing nearby anyway, and I start to tell her the whole story, but figure it's best left for away from the table. Realizing that this episode has probably ruined the atmosphere of the table, I ask for a transfer.

Fortunately after we trade a couple of verbal barbs -- and he insists that my asking to see was against poker etiquette -- things calm down and get really silent for maybe an orbit or two. Before I get my transfer, the table appears to be back to yukking it up, so I don't think this dispute ruined anyone's vacaton or anything. Still, I'm glad to get away from that table.

After I get my transfer, I speak out of earshot with the floor. She supports me on every point up to where I reached into the muck to counteract my opponent's reaching into the muck. (I know this was an impulsive mistake on my part, and I admit much to her). "Why didn't you explain the whole story to me then?" she asks. "I could have given him a penalty of time away from the table!" I explain that I didn't want to increase tensions at the table any more than we had already done.

Epilogue
I don't blame people for treating the contents of their mucked hand as precious information. What I don't get is, given that it's precious information, why don't you grasp a rule that entitles me to the same precious information as your neighbor? If it's that big a deal to you, don't show him! Or even so, given that you don't really understand SOSA, once you get it explained to you by me, a dealer, and a floor, why do you go to such lengths to insist that we don't understand poker etiquette? (Human nature not to admit error, I know.)

I'm not without fault here -- reaching in to stop Seat 7 from washing the muck was clearly a no-no, and calling the floor instead of reacting would made it crystal clear who the offender was. But more to the point, I'm not sure at what point invoking SOSA makes me the table nit and turns -EV. Should I never have asked to see his hand?

I'll write up a few other observations of my AC weekend in a separate mini-trip report, but this was probably the least uninteresting anecdote.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

Insisting on SOSA is absolutely not a breach of etiquette. What IS a breach of the rules is refusing to show your cards to the table after showing them to one or two others.

Possibly what they are confusing the etiquette point with is that it isn't proper etiquette to ask to see a player's cards who just lost a hand at showdown.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

I also think many players assume SOSA only applies to hands on the River.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

I think you are well within your rights to see the guys hand. Them's the rules, and I agree with the premise behind it.

that said, this situation makes you look extremely nitty and if you want my advice, you should knock it off.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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that said, this situation makes you look extremely nitty and if you want my advice, you should knock it off.

[/ QUOTE ]

"It" being the original request to see his cards after the hand, right?

Thanks. Assuming that's what you meant, I'm coming to the same conclusion. Yes, there is value to knowing where your opponent's range is to call a reraise (would he have called with JJ? TT? Does he understand he doesn't have odds to call with 88 and spike a set?). But episodes like this appear commonplace and my obsession is probably losing me EV.

Angus is right: People just don't understand that SOSA applies before the river.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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Yes, there is value to knowing where your opponent's range is to call a reraise (would he have called with JJ? TT? Does he understand he doesn't have odds to call with 88 and spike a set?).

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The problem is that he is giving the information to his neighbors, not to everybody at the table. I just want to be on equal footing with his neighbors.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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Yes, there is value to knowing where your opponent's range is to call a reraise (would he have called with JJ? TT? Does he understand he doesn't have odds to call with 88 and spike a set?).

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that he is giving the information to his neighbors, not to everybody at the table. I just want to be on equal footing with his neighbors.

[/ QUOTE ]

nit.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
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that said, this situation makes you look extremely nitty and if you want my advice, you should knock it off.

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"It" being the original request to see his cards after the hand, right?


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exactly. like I said it's your right, and if there was anything fishy going on at all I'd do the same, but if you're just trying to figure him out I wouldn't do it, especially if the game is already good.

honestly I think you get very little good info in situations like this, you can deduce that he's folding a good hand here, maybe 88 or TT or AQ or something of the sort. Knowing the specific hand might help a little in a situation later on, but it can cut both ways. when you ask to see it you're ensuring that the other 7-8 people at the table see it as well, and now they might start wondering if maybe they shouldnt start folding AQo sometimes preflop.


and yes the rule applies to all streets not just post-river, but post-river is where it most often occurs and really the only time it can be invoked without disrupting the game. about the only time I ever invoke it is if I'm watching a showdown, player A bets, player B folds after flashing his cards to another player.. I'll ask player B "what did you have?" most players realize that I have a right to this info and they'll just tell me, the dealer doesn't have to be involved, the game goes on, I look like I'm just curious and not trying to be the rule enforcer.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

Me too, obviously. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This comes up enough that it's probably worth addressing as a dealer training issue.

What would be the ideal procedure here? In my view, perhaps an observant dealer should set aside the cards without being asked, and wait until the very end of the hand to integrate them in the muck. At that point an observant player could discreetly say, "I'd like to see," and she could turn them over for the whole table. The owner of the hand might object and get a lesson in SOSA, but the effect would look less like the player who asked to see was being a nit.

The problem with that suggestion is, the dealer can't possibly see what's going on at both ends of the table simultaneously. Still, it's better than making me admit in public to my nittishness.

I don't say that the dealer should go so far as to offer to show the hand, but it seems like she could facilitate it. But that's asking a lot, which is why better training on this issue might be helpful.

The Borgata staff (both dealer and floor) handled it well in this situation, as they generally do, but there's gotta be a way to grant me my SOSA rights without forcing me to piss off the whole table to get them. Doesn't there?

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
...but the effect would look less like the player who asked to see was being a nit...

... Still, it's better than making me admit to my nittishness...

... but there's gotta be a way to grant me my SOSA rights without forcing me to piss off the whole table to get them. Doesn't there?

[/ QUOTE ]

frankly, i dont see why poker rooms should make things any easier on the nits. just resign yourself to the abandonment your strict, nittish "sosa rights" and relax.

also, if you still must know their hole cards in situations like this, try and build a repore (spelling?) with the guy at the other end of the table and get him to reveal his holdings willingly to you every once in a while.

nittiness is almost never the way.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

Well, I was in the other end of the situation.

I limp, re-raised the person next to me with AK. He was the only one in the pot. I showed him my cards after he folded and flipped them towards the dealer. The dealer tabled my hand. I asked him who wanted to see my hand. The dealer just replied 'show one show all.' I wasn't really mad about it or anything, but it was the first time I ever saw a dealer do this without it being requested.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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Fortunately after we trade a couple of verbal barbs -- and he insists that my asking to see was against poker etiquette

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It's against poker etiquette to keep showing your cards to your opponents.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I was in the other end of the situation.

I limp, re-raised the person next to me with AK. He was the only one in the pot. I showed him my cards after he folded and flipped them towards the dealer. The dealer tabled my hand. I asked him who wanted to see my hand. The dealer just replied 'show one show all.' I wasn't really mad about it or anything, but it was the first time I ever saw a dealer do this without it being requested.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be mad at that dealer, he just saved you a ton of money since he no longer deserves any tips from you.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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this situation makes you look extremely nitty and if you want my advice, you should knock it off.

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agreed. i wouldn't be surprised if acting this way is -EV. the people you make money off (especially at this level) are the ones playing to have some fun. being a nit and requesting to have his cards set aside is hurting the overall mood of the table.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

I can't remember the last time I requested to see a hand. It has to be at least three years.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

Many players would think what you did here was a breach of etiquette. Unless you suspect collusion, you should let it go.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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Many players would think what you did here was a breach of etiquette. Unless you suspect collusion, you should let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Igor you are confusing the "I Want To See That Hand" rule with the "Show One Show All" rule.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

No offense, but I think you were out of line - so he's showing his neigbors his "big laydown" with A10o or KJ or whatever. Who cares? I think it's nitty to ask the dealer to hold the cards to the side when he's folding preflop. OTOH, if someone bets the river and I fold, I WILL ask to see his hand if he shows it to others. But that's an entirely different scenario.

While what you did is technically within your rights, I think it's dickish and your tantrum at the end over pretty much nothing sounds like it would be embarassing to watch.

Jeff

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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While what you did is technically within your rights, I think it's dickish and your tantrum at the end over pretty much nothing sounds like it would be embarassing to watch.


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Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

Hey, I'm not afraid of self-criticism. If I were I wouldn't post threads like this.

"Tantrum" is probably overstating it a bit -- it was just him trying to wash the muck and me trying to flip it over, no shouting or anything -- but it's plainly not a scene I want to repeat. That's why I'm trying to better understand the root cause.

It sounds like my expectations of SOSA are just out of line with the expectations of most players, and if so then I probably just need to learn to let it pass. (I just find it odd to even have a rule if enforcing it in the manner it was intended is considered "dickish". I have to remind myself that I'm a relative poker newbie, since 2004, and that I have times that I don't understand the traditions of the game as well as I think I do.) It will drive me crazy, but I'm still confident I can beat these games even on micro-tilt.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

I do not believe it was entirely unreasnable to ask to your opponents card when the hand was done. However, once he blows up and starts making a fool of himself don't drop to his level and escalate the situation by trying to be the muck goalie.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Many players would think what you did here was a breach of etiquette. Unless you suspect collusion, you should let it go.

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Igor you are confusing the "I Want To See That Hand" rule with the "Show One Show All" rule.

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Actually, no I'm not.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

see the reason why you weren't part of the "cool" crowd in highschool is because... well your basicly a little good for nothing Nitty b!tch... its people like you who shouldn't play poker and be shot!!!

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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... don't drop to his level and escalate the situation by trying to be the muck goalie.

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I seriously just registered so I could congratulate you on this post. "Muck Goalie" is such a great term. It made me laugh for five minutes.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

I'm just glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

Perhaps you have the right to enforce SOSA, but nobody likes a nit. When you're a winning player, it's much better to be loved than it is to be feared. Invoking SOSA doesn't help the love any.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

Yes, you are in your rights. But it seems pretty nitty to request that the dealer set aside his hand while there are still others in the pot.

It is within your right to request to see a hand that has called you down (and is mucked when beat) - but it is very nitty to do so (I realize this is to prevent collusion issues - but hardly anyone does it for this sake).

Regardless, it might be in your rights but it is still very nitty and annoying to everyone at the table, IMO.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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Yes, you are in your rights. But it seems pretty nitty to request that the dealer set aside his hand while there are still others in the pot.

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Strong agreement. Just let it go.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

this is unreal, i would only ask if it was on the river and i had a semi-decent reason to see it. asking to have the cards set aside pf, while allowed, is pretty unheard of for me and just bad for the game. obviously he was out of line for trying to wash them in but jeez calm down bro, don't be such a nit.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

I'll show a hand I'm folding to my neighbor sometimes when I'd really like to call with it, but can't because I'm priced out. If somebody asked to see it afterwards, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

Standard rule in my cardroom is that if any player shows any other player cards at any time during the hand, they will be set aside and shown to all at the hand's conclusion.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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Standard rule in my cardroom is that if any player shows any other player cards at any time during the hand, they will be set aside and shown to all at the hand's conclusion.

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What is the rationale for this? I don't get it. This only applies to live hands, correct?

If I say "I fold" and then show the guy in my next seat JJ before physically mucking my cards... do I have to show the whole table? Why?

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

Because that is the rule in most casinos. If one player is shown your cards, then everyone else at the table has the right to seem them. But, it is very lame and most people let it go.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

AKQJ10, I am like you when it come to this SOSA. And it probably has roots somewhere in the past. Anywho I probably would not have asked that the hand be set aside, but I would have asked that the person not continue to show others their cards. It is one of the few things in live play that bugs the HELL out of me.

As far as preventing another player from reaching into the muck it seems like that was a reactive, rather thought out action. I am sure given time to "think" rather than react you probably would have let the dealer handle it

Situations like sometimes make for difficult live play. But it is still so much better than the internet. <yawn>

See you at "the woods" sometime. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Peace,
Mygtar

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Prologue
I admit it. When it comes to show one, show all (SOSA), I'm a nit.

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It's a "brand new day" in poker...YOU and the whole new bunch of n/l and internet players. There was a time when you idiots were an exception to the norm.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Prologue
I admit it. When it comes to show one, show all (SOSA), I'm a nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a "brand new day" in poker...YOU and the whole new bunch of n/l and internet players. There was a time when you idiots were an exception to the norm.

[/ QUOTE ]
It sucks when easy money is an inconvenience eh?

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

not only are you a NIT, but your also a bad player....... Im going to send you a PM so I dont get banned.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

Damn wish I had gone, lots of drama/action. But yea, I agree with you.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

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not only are you a NIT, but your also a bad player....... Im going to send you a PM so I dont get banned.

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I'm always appreciative when someone wants to critique my game. It presents a great learning opportunity, especially since I'm very much still learning NLHE.

Why don't you explain the "your also a bad player" comment in public so that we can all discuss your argument on the merits? You think smooth-calling with AA or slowplaying the flop is better?

If you worry that providing your insight on my play is going to get you banned, then it says a lot about the value of that insight.

Re: Show one, show all drama in the Borg $2-5 NL
 

AK: New players are often the nittiest...soon you'll realize that letting poor opponents "get away with" little breaches of rules like this that don't affect you at all in order to keep the game smooth and unthinking.

I once played in a bar game where one old drunk would shortchange the pot everytime. I'd bet 4 chips, he'd put in three. I never once called him on it, since I knew he'd just fold the next street if I mentioned it...instead he got his "discount" on the turn and usually the river too.