Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

Just about everybody here has played longer at Party than I have so let me apologize in advance for any ignorance that I am about to parade. My stance on "Monster" isn't as negative as everybody else's, and yes that may be because I don't really understand the cost/benefit break down well but if I get a better understanding from looking stupid then that's a good enough reason to post.
A few points:
1. I've had the week off and have been poker junkying it up which is also due to my fear that the sites, one by one, will will start throwing us land of the free (that was a joke) types off soon.

With Party, I've logged a ton of hours since Monday and I find the monster games total wildness but still encouraging in light of all the talk of NL drying up. Monster guys are nuts! Its like a Gamblers Anonymous meeting on 100 tables.
Yes, I'm barely up, and its rough having all those callers with AA. Yeah, the beats have been a horror show yet, as we all know, it's a long term game and I'll take the long view about the beatings and raise calls with unsuited junk. I do know that this view comes more naturally to most of you than it does to me as alot of 2p2ers never seem to tilt.
2. An inequitable increase in rake along with none of us not getting any monster jackpot loot hurts and does suck, but doesn't the better action somewhat mitigate? Rake online is always less that B&M and these games remind me of robbing drunks at 5 am at the Excalibur. It'll pay off sooner or later.
3. I've never had warm feelings toward Party anyway so I guess nothing would shock or offend me like it did others. Maybe my confusion here is also a result of low expectations. One expects a scammer to scam so, while annoying, it has been a humorous vacation from nitland.

I agree that the regular, non-monster games are definitely worse, and I admit that all of you know better than I do about Party so any explanation is appreciated. I know some of the math guys could clarify why its not worth staying there with a simple equation so thanks in advance.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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With Party, I've logged a ton of hours since Monday and I find the monster games total wildness but still encouraging in light of all the talk of NL drying up.

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Sorry, I don't really have any answers for you but this caught my attention. Who is saying that NL is "drying up"? Whoever it is is wrong.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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I agree that the regular, non-monster games are definitely worse, and I admit that all of you know better than I do about Party so any explanation is appreciated. I know some of the math guys could clarify why its not worth staying there with a simple equation so thanks in advance.


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You don't need a math guy, it's really simple.

Do you have PokerTracker?

If not, get it.

If so, select the previous month before monster and check your winnings and subtract the rake.

Then select the dates you have played with monster and check your winnings and subtract the rake.

Are you losing much more to rake?

It's that simple.

Maybe you are doing fine, then again, maybe the rake stat comparisons before and after monster will point out exactly what you are looking for.

One caveat though. I noticed PT has been screwing up pretty bad recently with the rake. Some guys are getting negative rake, while others are losing hundreds per hand [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

If you think this is an issue, go to the Game Notes tab and select all, then sort by highest and lowest. If nothing looks out of place, then you are fine.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

Yeah, there was a thread in the spring about NL will die and limit is the natural state of affairs. It had a ton of comments on it, and a lot of guys feel NL fish will all die out and limit will once again rule--I hope not though. I don't have the experience to say one way or another.

BTW, cool pic of Hunter.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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Yeah, there was a thread in the spring about NL will die and limit is the natural state of affairs. It had a ton of comments on it, and a lot of guys feel NL fish will all die out and limit will once again rule--I hope not though. I don't have the experience to say one way or another.


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I would love to hear a single good reason why a game with limited opponent control and sick long term downswings is supposed to overtake the CADILLAC OF POKER [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The donks love to go all in and the good players need control.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

Okay, will do. Um, I didn't mean to imply that ever raising rake for any reason was justified. It isn't--unless WPEX needs to conduct a fish recruitment drive--I am just impressed at how quickly this special band of losers was put together at those tables. Wow! Can you say genetic mutation! lol. I had 4 callers today with a 7 x blinds preflop raise. One had KJ--and he won with two pair--oh well.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

Here is a thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...6422&page=

This wasn't the big one though. There was a really long one that was in General or Poker Theory, and maybe it was in February but that's all I can find now.

It was mostly limit guys defending limit as the being the purer, better game. One poster, I recall, said that skill can overcome much of the variance that so much marked my time at 2/4 of course I wasn't very good.
Another said that the fish blow out of NL so fast that its only a matter of time before they fall below replacement level and then we return back to limit with its mandatory backdoor flushes and straights cracking your sets while the clown who beats you asks, "First time playing?"

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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Yeah, there was a thread in the spring about NL will die and limit is the natural state of affairs. It had a ton of comments on it, and a lot of guys feel NL fish will all die out and limit will once again rule--I hope not though. I don't have the experience to say one way or another.


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I would love to hear a single good reason why a game with limited opponent control and sick long term downswings is supposed to overtake the CADILLAC OF POKER [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The donks love to go all in and the good players need control.

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Basically because it has less variance, the fish go bust quicker and are less likely to reload. Look at a game like chess, where the better player almost always wins. How often does a bad player want to wager money on the outcome of a game of chess?

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

How often does the average losing poker player (especially online) go to vegas/local casino and play craps/roullette.

Applying economic theory at its basic level doesnt work for the reason that the average fish doesnt consider it more than entertainment.

The reason why NL is more likely to wipe out limit is for the reason that for weaker players it is considered a much more enjoyable game.

Ive taught a lot of people the game and ive played a lot of home games. Limit is bottom of the list of game choices in dealers choice and the newbies just dont understand how it can be good to only bet small increments when you have 'good' hands.

To one extent or another i would imagine this translates well to online poker and its mainly the long term fish who are playing limit because its the traditional game of choice.

All my opinion.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

OP - Aside from the rake issue and merely on the issue of the wildness of the tables, I play 100NL FR and have to say I have been astounded over the last few days about the madness on show.

Table VP$IPs of 35%+, loads of stacks joining table with like $27.98 or $57.27, 6 callers to 3xBB pfr etc...madness. I am a terrible player, and even I have found it to be particularly easy pickings in the last few days.

It definitely cannot continue like this.*


* Unless of course it's always been this nuts and I've only just twigged it.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

The fish will get tired of loosing money at NL about the same time they get tired of loosing money at Blackjack and Slots.

And they don't [/i]always[/i] loose. We've all seen uber-fish sitting with 500BB stacks in 100BB buy-in games. That's pretty good positive reinforcement, even if they do wind up giving it all back...

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

It's quite simple. The typical twoplustwo 52 tablers decided that their assumption of the game is gospel. Nevermind that they are and were completely wrong and that you can make much more money on the Monster tables than you could on the old Party. Even once you prove this to them they will tell you it will dry up, it won't.

The Party crowd LOVES this stuff and every gambler in the world will be there. Enjoy and let the "sharks" from here bitch, moan, and play somewhere else for almost a year.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

all the math will not get across. Look at it this way. Last year I decided to play the 2/4 BBJ tables instead of my regular 2/4 tables. Did not run to great for the whole month. Like 1.1bb/100. Then at the end of the month my RB was off by like $600! i tried to figure out what was going on and it turns out I paid 3k in extra rake for the month of may(no rb on this). 3k out of pocket. The monster tables now drop at $5 instead of the normal 5BB's. My guess is I would have been paying more like 4k if that was the case.

so 3 to 4,000 dollars per month for a full time 2/4 player will be going to the monster promo.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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all the math will not get across. Look at it this way. Last year I decided to play the 2/4 BBJ tables instead of my regular 2/4 tables. Did not run to great for the whole month. Like 1.1bb/100. Then at the end of the month my RB was off by like $600! i tried to figure out what was going on and it turns out I paid 3k in extra rake for the month of may(no rb on this). 3k out of pocket. The monster tables now drop at $5 instead of the normal 5BB's. My guess is I would have been paying more like 4k if that was the case.

so 3 to 4,000 dollars per month for a full time 2/4 player will be going to the monster promo.

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#1. It's not rake
#2. There's such a thing as a "full time 2/4 player"?
#3. Only 30% of the drop goes to the Monster promo. The rest goes into funding the typically +EV bad beat jackpot. When the jackpot is +EV, it doesn't matter if your 50 cents is adding to it or paying for your arch-rival's laundry, +EV is +EV (yes variance, blah blah).
#4. I don't think there's anything left to say about this promo that hasn't been said already. I doubt they'll cool the monster tables until after the WSOP so we'll just have to live with it.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

is there such a thing as a full time waitress?? Good 2/4 players can make upwards of 40 dollars an hour. What is the average wage in U.S? What's the average wage in south america/russia/germany. There are plenty of full time 2/4 players. There are full time .5/1 players. Making $12/hour is a good wage in brazil/mexico etc..

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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Yes, I'm barely up, and its rough having all those callers with AA.

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yeah, that sucks dude.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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OP - Aside from the rake issue and merely on the issue of the wildness of the tables, I play 100NL FR and have to say I have been astounded over the last few days about the madness on show.

Table VP$IPs of 35%+, loads of stacks joining table with like $27.98 or $57.27, 6 callers to 3xBB pfr etc...madness. I am a terrible player, and even I have found it to be particularly easy pickings in the last few days.

It definitely cannot continue like this.*


* Unless of course it's always been this nuts and I've only just twigged it.

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lol, 35% omgomg

please give 6max NL a try. today at one table i had an 85/30, a 70/0 and two 56/15s

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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OP - Aside from the rake issue and merely on the issue of the wildness of the tables, I play 100NL FR and have to say I have been astounded over the last few days about the madness on show.

Table VP$IPs of 35%+, loads of stacks joining table with like $27.98 or $57.27, 6 callers to 3xBB pfr etc...madness. I am a terrible player, and even I have found it to be particularly easy pickings in the last few days.

It definitely cannot continue like this.*


* Unless of course it's always been this nuts and I've only just twigged it.

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lol, 35% omgomg

please give 6max NL a try. today at one table i had an 85/30, a 70/0 and two 56/15s

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Dude, I was referring to the TABLE VP$IP, not the VP$IPs of individual players.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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OP - Aside from the rake issue and merely on the issue of the wildness of the tables, I play 100NL FR and have to say I have been astounded over the last few days about the madness on show.

Table VP$IPs of 35%+, loads of stacks joining table with like $27.98 or $57.27, 6 callers to 3xBB pfr etc...madness. I am a terrible player, and even I have found it to be particularly easy pickings in the last few days.

It definitely cannot continue like this.*


* Unless of course it's always been this nuts and I've only just twigged it.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, 35% omgomg

please give 6max NL a try. today at one table i had an 85/30, a 70/0 and two 56/15s

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Dude, I was referring to the TABLE VP$IP, not the VP$IPs of individual players.

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do some math before you flame me - even if the other two players had vpip = 0, the table vpip would be over 50. except it wasn't - i'm 19/13 and the other clown was around 30/10. welcome to shorthanded poker [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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OP - Aside from the rake issue and merely on the issue of the wildness of the tables, I play 100NL FR and have to say I have been astounded over the last few days about the madness on show.

Table VP$IPs of 35%+, loads of stacks joining table with like $27.98 or $57.27, 6 callers to 3xBB pfr etc...madness. I am a terrible player, and even I have found it to be particularly easy pickings in the last few days.

It definitely cannot continue like this.*


* Unless of course it's always been this nuts and I've only just twigged it.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, 35% omgomg

please give 6max NL a try. today at one table i had an 85/30, a 70/0 and two 56/15s

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Dude, I was referring to the TABLE VP$IP, not the VP$IPs of individual players.

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Sample size?

Also...I don't understand, you LIKE seeing players sit down with $25 adn $50 at 100nl?

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

"The reason why NL is more likely to wipe out limit is for the reason that for weaker players it is considered a much more enjoyable game."

Good point. I had not thought of that.

"Ive taught a lot of people the game and ive played a lot of home games. Limit is bottom of the list of game choices in dealers choice and the newbies just dont understand how it can be good to only bet small increments when you have 'good' hands."

Good information. I never play in home games but that makes sense.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

Well, yeah, statistically I'm ahead, but I'd appreciate it if at least one of them would reraise whenI had them, lol.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

Thanks, that's some math that makes perfect sense. I did have RB at Empire but never had it at Party nor am I a VIP, but 5 bucks rake is foul.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

NL will dry up (or at least the fish supply will dry up)

WHEN THEY TAKE IT OFF THE TV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not going to happen.

Doc [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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#2. There's such a thing as a "full time 2/4 player"?


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Have you any idea how much money can be made playing 2/4 full time? It's even possible to play .50/1 for a living where 1-2K a week is very doable.

Re: Confusion About Party Conventional Wisdom.
 

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OP - Aside from the rake issue and merely on the issue of the wildness of the tables, I play 100NL FR and have to say I have been astounded over the last few days about the madness on show.

Table VP$IPs of 35%+, loads of stacks joining table with like $27.98 or $57.27, 6 callers to 3xBB pfr etc...madness. I am a terrible player, and even I have found it to be particularly easy pickings in the last few days.

It definitely cannot continue like this.*


* Unless of course it's always been this nuts and I've only just twigged it.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, 35% omgomg

please give 6max NL a try. today at one table i had an 85/30, a 70/0 and two 56/15s

[/ QUOTE ]


Dude, I was referring to the TABLE VP$IP, not the VP$IPs of individual players.

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Sample size?

Also...I don't understand, you LIKE seeing players sit down with $25 adn $50 at 100nl?

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CATerp - Sorry, wasn't meant as a flame, sorry if it came across that way.

I was simply saying that a Table VP$IP at NLFR100 of 35+ is very unusual, even for Party at those stakes.

..........

DWarrior - Sample size: well, the sample size is by definintion limited since we're talking about the tables since Monster started, so it's necessarily going to be in the single-figure thousands.

As for your shortstack question, the answer in this circumsatance is "yes" because these "shortstacks" are not "shortstacks" in the sense you are implying (i.e. tricky, nasty players to play against who gain advantage from their expert play of a shortstack). No, that is NOT what is happening at FRNL100.

The "shortstacks" are short because they presumably have donked off the rest or are just joining with an arbitrary amount not knowing anything about optimum buy-ins. These players are certainly not experts, much less "shortstack" experts.

Apples and oranges.



Cheers.