Two Plus Two Newer Archives - QTs

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- Micro Stakes Limit (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37)

- - QTs - a bad day (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=170617)

Today was not a good day.
I hate those really loose players who just call you with pretty much anything and make flush, straight or a trips on the river. So, here we go...

Party Poker 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button checks.

Should i have bet here ? It was something i regret after everybody showed their hands...

Turn: (5.20 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Ok, made my hand but now 2 hearts on the table. I knew that by raising i would not get a player with a flush draw to fold. But now that i think again, he only hits his flush 20 per cent of the time. I should have bet for value [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

River: (10.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, Button calls, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

This third heart was not good. Here i just called, cuz the pot was so big...

Final Pot: 19.20 BB

Re: QTs - a bad day

Are the players just loose or are they loose and aggressive?

I don't really like the PF call UTG, we are OOP for the whole hand.

Also, you will make money of people who chase till the river.

Re: QTs - a bad day

This table was loose, but passive.

Im still quite a newbie, so i use the SSHE pre flop recommendation table. It suggest calling EP with QTs.

Re: QTs - a bad day

Grunching:
At a loose table, I think the limp w/ QTs is fine.

Bet that flop? Not really. Why pay 2 bets for your oesd when you can pay 1 or 0?

Raise that turn.

That was a bad card on the river. I find it hard to fold at microstakes even on this scary board. Sorry you got nailed by the runner-runner flush, it happens. Blame button for not betting his hand.

Re: QTs - a bad day

"Why pay 2 bets for your oesd when you can pay 1 or 0"

To push weak draws out. Even if you don´t make the draw but make a pair, your chances to win with that pair improve by every player that folds.

Re: QTs - a bad day

First of all, to quote the FAQ:
[ QUOTE ]

How do I deal with all these loose players sucking out on me with terrible hands?
A common complaint is that the players are so bad that it actually prevents you from making money. New players often feel that if they could just go to a game where opponents "played more reasonable hands", "respected my raises", and "didn't chase all the way to the river" they would make more money. This whole notion (to quote SSH) is absurd. Poker is a game where you profit from the mistakes of your opponents. If your opponents make more mistakes you will make more money. Loose, passive limit Holdem games are highly profitable for this reason. It is as simple as that. Focus on winning the most money, not the most pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

So don't complain when someone draws against you without proper odds and makes their hand, in the long run they are giving you their money that they hate so much.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (10.40 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button checks.

Should i have bet here ? It was something i regret after everybody showed their hands...

[/ QUOTE ]
No, you are the one drawing. It is extremely likely that you are behind at this point. You should be kissing the floor that you got a free card. Your OESD isn't good when you take a close look at the board especially when considering that the pre-flop raiser is behind you. I check/call here.
[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (5.20 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Ok, made my hand but now 2 hearts on the table. I knew that by raising i would not get a player with a flush draw to fold. But now that i think again, he only hits his flush 20 per cent of the time. I should have bet for value [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
You should have raised for value because you most likely had the best hand and also to lower the value of chasing a flush draw. If you do not raise your opponent is getting at least 7.2:1. If you raise your opponent is getting 4.1:1 which is almost the exact odds you need to draw to a flush, thus it almost doesn't matter to you if they call or not. The thing you do not want to allow is a cheap card to the draw. This is a clear cut bet.

[ QUOTE ]

River: (10.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, Button calls, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

This third heart was not good. Here i just called, cuz the pot was so big...

Final Pot: 19.20 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
Good call, you were getting 11.2:1 the first time around and better the second and there were only three hearts on the board.

Re: QTs - a bad day

Preflop limp is fine in these types of games.

Raise turn as you are not going to fold flush draws anyway so you are correct in thinking that you should have raised.

River I just call here as well some will probably advise raising but I scare easily and start seeing fullhouses and flushes in my head.

Re: QTs - a bad day

Preflop limp UTG is marginal, but against loose passives, it should be fine.

EDIT ON FLOP PLAY: I ran Pokerstove on this hand, with a tighter range for the button and giving the rest of the field a larger limping range. Our equity isn't good enough for a bet. I change my mind to a check/call.

Raise turn! You hit your hand, and now is not the time to be worried about flush draws or full houses even. I'm going to cap this, no question.

If you had been more aggressive on previous streets, the river card probably would not suck as much, because some of the players might have folded by now. River plays differently with aggression on previous streets.

Re: QTs - a bad day

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really like the PF call UTG, we are OOP for the whole hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop limp UTG is marginal

[/ QUOTE ]

I am suprised that people dont like limping with suited broadways at this limit.

Re: QTs - a bad day

[ QUOTE ]

I am suprised that people dont like limping with suited broadways at this limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any advice I've ever seen would say to limp with this, except for the "never open limp" camp that really doesn't apply much at this limit.

At the very least even if it's a marginal hand a 2+2er should have the skills to outplay the competition.

Re: QTs - a bad day

preflop is probably fine at this level. Don't limp first in in early position too often, but this is a fine hand for this at this level of play where you will get a lot of callers and a raise isn't that bad.

Ya, you could bet out on the flop for equity, but it's probably thin. If anybody has a king they would have redraws even if you do hit. Also, many of you straight outs are probably gone. Checking is fine.

Raise the turn. You basically have the nuts here unless someone has a boat, which doesn't seem likely. Don't worry about backdoor flush draws.

The river is fine.

reasoning behind the bet

But what do you people think about the reasoning that in big pots i should bet to push weak draws out, whether i have a made hand or a draw. Hence i thought about betting the flop. Even if i don´t make the draw but make a pair, my chances to win with that pair improve by every player that folds. -SSHE. In this case, a guy drawing weak to a superior hand.

Checking costed me the whole pot. A bet would´ve cost me 5 cents.

The pot is big, so just 1 bet isn´t that likely to drive people out. But it might drive some really weak draws out. Like in this case - the guy who had 86s. Ideal would be a check raise.
If im willing to call 1 bet, why not bet myself and try to drive those previously mentioned players out.